Mormons facing the Abusive God

[_Nightlion]

Oh? Gee, well then, I guess, shucks, er and what? I should just shoot myself? Take out my brain and give it a good whack? What? Be dumb? No, I think not.

Telling me that I have no basis for saying any of that is groundless. There, how do you like that? Stop freaking at faith. It is real. Rare. So rare that God is willing to sift through all that there is in the universe over and over again to find it. It only take a speck of faith to move a mountain. That is how great it is. I have used faith greatly when it was put in me. Yet is was but a whisper and hardly there yet it was. Still it accomplished something truly spectacular, Biblical, stupendous.

How is any of this a response to Stak's reasoned and respectful statement? Or are you trying to decimate his willingness to respond to you?



edit: Nevermind. I'll butt out.

If a dancer is too self conscious how he comes off it sullies the performance. Be that as it may. I note that both you and Stak will not take faith as a serious consideration. God wants faith of us. If he abuses us it must be for the purpose of making a gain in faith. The abuse of the Children of Israel in Egypt through the plagues and into the wilderness, miracles notwithstanding, was most unpleasant for those who endured it. What great faith came from its legacy! I project the same legacy of great faith to arise again in the hearts of the Jews directly reflective from the Holocaust. It has only been 67 years. It was truly a miracle that Hitler lost. He should have won. God intervened and had him do stupid things that actually saved all (remaining) Jews on earth. 67 years, that's no time at all. Wait for it.

If Hitler had invaded England the day after he took Paris and staid out of Russia or simply waited to begin his war after he had the atomic bomb the extinction of the Jews and lots of other unpleasantness would have happened worldwide. God intervened. It shall become apparent with greater distance in looking back.

[_KevinSim]

I don't always like to think of the unpleasant aspects of the religious belief I formerly professed, but this post certainly reminds me of one of them with uncomfortable clarity.

It's a lot more pleasant to think that there is no deity at all, rather than to think there is one and he, she, or it made a world like this.

Chap, you think that God (presuming God exists) did a bad job of making this world? Do you think you could have done a better job?

Your response would, perhaps, be that of course you could have done a better job, if you had had God's omnipotence. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe you have a better answer than that; in such a case I'd be glad to hear whether you think you could have done a better job than God did (assuming there was a God that created it).

But if I did get your answer right, then the real question is, how much omnipotence does God actually have? When God set out to make this world, could He have created any world at all? If so then you might have a point when you try to assert that God did a pretty lousy job. But the rationale behind the argument that God doesn't exist from the state of the world God presumably created all falls apart when you consider the possibility that maybe this world was the best thing God could make, given the realities He had to work under.

I haven't for years believed in a God that is strictly omnipotent the way orthodox Christians believe God is; Joseph Smith didn't believe in that strict omnipotence either.

[_Morley]

Chap, you think that God (presuming God exists) did a bad job of making this world? Do you think you could have done a better job?

Your response would, perhaps, be that of course you could have done a better job, if you had had God's omnipotence. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe you have a better answer than that; in such a case I'd be glad to hear whether you think you could have done a better job than God did (assuming there was a God that created it).

But if I did get your answer right, then the real question is, how much omnipotence does God actually have? When God set out to make this world, could He have created any world at all? If so then you might have a point when you try to assert that God did a pretty lousy job. But the rationale behind the argument that God doesn't exist from the state of the world God presumably created all falls apart when you consider the possibility that maybe this world was the best thing God could make, given the realities He had to work under.

I haven't for years believed in a God that is strictly omnipotent the way orthodox Christians believe God is; Joseph Smith didn't believe in that strict omnipotence either.

Your answer to the problem of evil seems to be that God is limited--is not really omnipotent. This solution creates significant problems of its own. If God represents 'good' and God is not omnipotent, how do we know He (and good) will win against evil?

[_huckelberry]

Your answer to the problem of evil seems to be that God is limited--is not really omnipotent. This solution creates significant problems of its own. If God represents 'good' and God is not omnipotent, how do we know He (and good) will win against evil?

Are you viewing the question of what is omnipotence for God as either God can instantly create a world with humans all loving each other with out conflict or pain, or you doubt God can over come evil ? There might be alternatives.

There are variations in how people view omnipotence. that causes some miscommunication.

Of course you absolutely have no way of knowing whether God can overcome evil. Untill it happens,or doesn't, you do not know. I suppose you can continue betting on evil. Or not.

[_Morley]

.... I note that both you and Stak will not take faith as a serious consideration. ....

James, I do indeed take faith as a serious consideration. It’s through the sharp, thin, glass shard of faith—faith that the world might not be completely mad or evil or abandoned—that I make coffee every morning and wrestle demons every night. Like everyone else.

[_Morley]

Your answer to the problem of evil seems to be that God is limited--is not really omnipotent. This solution creates significant problems of its own. If God represents 'good' and God is not omnipotent, how do we know He (and good) will win against evil?

Are you viewing the question of what is omnipotence for God as either God can instantly create a world with humans all loving each other with out conflict or pain, or you doubt God can over come evil ? There might be alternatives.

There are variations in how people view omnipotence. that causes some miscommunication.

Of course you absolutely have no way of knowing whether God can overcome evil. Untill it happens,or doesn't, you do not know. I suppose you can continue betting on evil. Or not.

Huck-

1) What do you mean by this: "I suppose you can continue betting on evil"?

2) How do you define omnipotence?

[_huckelberry]

What do you mean by this: "I suppose you can continue betting on evil"?

How do you see omnipotence?

I used the words ,betting on evil, purely rhetorically. I have no reason to doubt your faith in the value of living for the side of good.

I undestand omnipotence to mean that God is the source of all the existent power. Being in the universe comes from his being and power, there is no other source.
I realize that Christian thinking tends to say that God is only limited by not being able to do what is self contradictory. It is very hard to think about the problem of evil without sensing there may be some other limitation. That limitation, if there, would be within God self not an exterior force. One might consider whether the consideration of what is or is not contradictory might depend upon the nature of the creation. An example, light can be,or act as, particle or wave. that contradicton is possible for light,not so much for sound waves. I mean by noticing that little observation to point out that the traditional theological allowance toward limitation of Gods power of no contradtions implies that his creative power has some sort of shape or nature determining what created things would have the limitations we consider as a nonallowance of contradiction.

The safe explaination is, I think, God can do what God can do. It is traditional of course to say God can choose to create the way God wills. I suspect that saying God can do what God can do or saying God wills what God wills are both ways of skirting around the fact that we have zero information on what is actually involved in creating universes or people.

[_Nightlion]

.... I note that both you and Stak will not take faith as a serious consideration. ....

James, I do indeed take faith as a serious consideration. It’s through the sharp, thin, glass shard of faith—faith that the world might not be completely mad or evil or abandoned—that I make coffee every morning and wrestle demons every night. Like everyone else.

I have been struck lately with just how minute faith can be and still have power. Great faith is a speck like a mustard seed in size. Imagine that? It must be sub atomic size faith we mostly utilize. Background radiation faith. And still with that we almost thrive.

[_KevinSim]

Your answer to the problem of evil seems to be that God is limited--is not really omnipotent. This solution creates significant problems of its own. If God represents 'good' and God is not omnipotent, how do we know He (and good) will win against evil?

In one sense it doesn't really matter to me whether God will ultimately win against evil or not. Better to ally myself with the good deity who doesn't have power to win, than to ally myself with any of the evil supernaturally powerful beings who perhaps do have the power to win. How can a person with a conscience do anything else?

But another answer is that on the spectrum with the brand of literal omnipotence Christian orthodoxy tends to teach on one side and complete helplessness on the other end, the ability to "win against evil" is way towards the latter end; there's a huge gulf between the former end and the ability to win against evil. One clearly doesn't need to have the capacity to do literally anything one wants in order to be certain one can win against evil.

Ultimately, I believe God can eventually overcome evil, because I believe He has told me He can overcome it, and I trust Him.

[_Morley]

What do you mean by this: "I suppose you can continue betting on evil"?

How do you see omnipotence?

I used the words ,betting on evil, purely rhetorically. I have no reason to doubt your faith in the value of living for the side of good.

I undestand omnipotence to mean that God is the source of all the existent power. Being in the universe comes from his being and power, there is no other source.
I realize that Christian thinking tends to say that God is only limited by not being able to do what is self contradictory. It is very hard to think about the problem of evil without sensing there may be some other limitation. That limitation, if there, would be within God self not an exterior force. One might consider whether the consideration of what is or is not contradictory might depend upon the nature of the creation. An example, light can be,or act as, particle or wave. that contradicton is possible for light,not so much for sound waves. I mean by noticing that little observation to point out that the traditional theological allowance toward limitation of Gods power of no contradtions implies that his creative power has some sort of shape or nature determining what created things would have the limitations we consider as a nonallowance of contradiction.

The safe explaination is, I think, God can do what God can do. It is traditional of course to say God can choose to create the way God wills. I suspect that saying God can do what God can do or saying God wills what God wills are both ways of skirting around the fact that we have zero information on what is actually involved in creating universes or people.

Thanks, Huck.

Wave–particle duality is a description, not a contradiction. I'm not sure that a description of a theory in physics is a good analogy for assumed contradictions in deity. That aside, you seem to be basically be saying that 'it's all a mystery.' God is a mystery that we just have to accept and basically take on faith. Do I have it about right?