For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

[_Themis]

I've already quoted both the JSH and HC. Read the thread!!!

Um ya and he answered you on this. It doesn't change anything he said. If it does tell us specifically how.



I find it interesting that on another thread he is arguing against the church in regards to man being able to become God. Even Joseph taught this, yet why is tobin getting it right but Joseph and all leaders after him getting it wrong. Is tobin the only one seeing God, or was his experience something else. From his posts I only get that his expereince was a one time thing, so I wonder where he gets all this information.

[_Tobin]

I've already quoted both the JSH and HC. Read the thread!!!

Um ya and he answered you on this. It doesn't change anything he said. If it does tell us specifically how.

Joseph Smith used the U&T. He also received the D&C 10 from the Lord and knows what happened because he was there. He later describes the circumstances of what occured when he received the U&T, when he lost them, and when they were returned. Thews house of cards is based on the idea that the U&T weren't returned/or they were the seer stones and he basically has to ignore everything that contradicts him in the JSH and HC to arrive at that opinion.

[_Chap]

This is how D&C 10 (dated as delivered in Summer 1828) begins nowadays:

1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you adelivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the bUrim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

2 And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your amind became bdarkened.

3 Nevertheless, it is now arestored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of btranslation as you have begun.

4 Do not run afaster or labor more than you have bstrength and means provided to enable you to translate; but be cdiligent unto the end.

5 aPray always, that you may come off bconqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may cescape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work.

But that version of the text is not the original one published in 1833, which can be seen here:

http://www.irr.org/mit/boc/1833boc-p22.html

Whoops! No mention of the Urim and Thummim. It has been inserted as part of the later modifications of the original revelation ...

Doesn't that make Tobin's point somewhat ... shall we say nuanced?

[_Themis]

Joseph Smith used the U&T. He also received the D&C 10 from the Lord and knows what happened because he was there. He later describes the circumstances of what occured when he received the U&T, when he lost them, and when they were returned. Thews house of cards is based on the idea that the U&T weren't returned/or they were the seer stones and he basically has to ignore everything that contradicts him in the JSH and HC to arrive at that opinion.

What is your evidence they were returned. Remember that the seer stones have also been called the U & T and they were what Joseph used when supposedly translating the Book of Mormon.

[_Chap]

Joseph Smith used the U&T. He also received the D&C 10 from the Lord and knows what happened because he was there. He later describes the circumstances of what occured when he received the U&T, when he lost them, and when they were returned. Thews house of cards is based on the idea that the U&T weren't returned/or they were the seer stones and he basically has to ignore everything that contradicts him in the JSH and HC to arrive at that opinion.

What is your evidence they were returned. Remember that the seer stones have also been called the U & T and they were what Joseph used when supposedly translating the Book of Mormon.

I wonder what you mean by 'supposedly'. You know of course that the term Urim and Thummim is not used at all until after 1833.

[_thews]

Joseph Smith used the U&T. He also received the D&C 10 from the Lord and knows what happened because he was there. He later describes the circumstances of what occured when he received the U&T, when he lost them, and when they were returned. Thews house of cards is based on the idea that the U&T weren't returned/or they were the seer stones and he basically has to ignore everything that contradicts him in the JSH and HC to arrive at that opinion.

Tobin, I assure you my house is not the one built out of cards. You have completely ignored multiple references including the history of the church in continuing to claim Joseph Smith did not use seer stones to translate the Book of Mormon, and provided zero references with sources in support of your argument. Seer stones, no matter what you call them, are what Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon out of his stove-pipe hat with his face buried in it. This is a direct account from Martin Harris, Emma Smith and David Whitmer. Since you can't seem to grasp the source of the name Urim and Thummim, do you acknowledge that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using seer stones placed in his stove-pipe hat?

[_thews]

Am I correct in assuming that Thews is a believer?

A believer in what?

It is evident in his posts that he has a need to believe, which has nothing to do with the history or theology; rather it is most likely his familial situation.

I'm not following your use of "need" to believe in the above. Everything I've presented is a documented fact, which has everything to do with history. Regarding the theological differences between Mormonism and Christianity, they are many, which is also relevant, but not necessarily relevant to the discussion of the three-card Monte game of re-naming seer stones the Urim and Thummim.

From Fair (another data point I expect Tobin to reject based on his unwavering belief in Joseph Smith's truth claims):

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... nd_Thummim

The seer stone

Main article: Joseph Smith and seer stones

Many eyewitness accounts confirm that Joseph employed his seer stone during part of the translation process. Martin Harris states that Joseph used the Nephite interpreters and then later switched to using the seer stone "for convenience." [1] In fact, Elder Nelson refers to the use of the seer stone in his 1993 talk:

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote: “Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.) [2]

It also appears that the seer stone was sometimes referred to as the "Urim and Thummim," indicating that the name could be assigned to any device that was used for the purpose of translation.[3]

To Tobin, if your argument hinges on the use of "Urim and Thummim" to describe Joseph Smith's seer stones, please define this specifically.

[_Themis]

I wonder what you mean by 'supposedly'. You know of course that the term Urim and Thummim is not used at all until after 1833.

Supposedly is used to say that Joseph was claiming to translate, and yes I do realize the term as not used until later.

[_Tobin]

From Fair (another data point I expect Tobin to reject based on his unwavering belief in Joseph Smith's truth claims):
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... nd_Thummim
To Tobin, if your argument hinges on the use of "Urim and Thummim" to describe Joseph Smith's seer stones, please define this specifically.

I never made any claim that Joseph Smith did not use the seer stones, so that is non-sense. I said that there are clear statements (and quoted them) made later by Joseph Smith (and others) about the U&T and that they were different from the seer stones that Joseph Smith had previously. You simply ignore those statements for no good reason.

[_thews]

From Fair (another data point I expect Tobin to reject based on his unwavering belief in Joseph Smith's truth claims):
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... nd_Thummim
To Tobin, if your argument hinges on the use of "Urim and Thummim" to describe Joseph Smith's seer stones, please define this specifically.

I never made any claim that Joseph Smith did not use the seer stones, so that is non-sense. I said that there are clear statements (and quoted them) made later by Joseph Smith (and others) about the U&T and that they were different from the seer stones that Joseph Smith had previously. You simply ignore those statements for no good reason.

So let me get this straight... you acknowledge Joseph Smith used seer stones. You acknowledge the Nephite spectacles were taken back as punishment (per D&C 10). At what point did Joseph Smith obtain the supposed Urim and Thummim?

Insert answer here__________________________________.