Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

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_consiglieri
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _consiglieri »

Drifting wrote:Unfortunately yesterday's lesson contained this non symbolic scripture...

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. (Book of Mormon, Jacob, Chapter 3)


It's not playing fair if your class is one lesson ahead of my class.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Drifting
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _Drifting »

consiglieri wrote:
Drifting wrote:Unfortunately yesterday's lesson contained this non symbolic scripture...

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. (Book of Mormon, Jacob, Chapter 3)

It's not playing fair if your class is one lesson ahead of my class.


We did lesson 12 yesterday.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
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_Themis
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _Themis »

consiglieri wrote:Although I have traditionally thought that the Book of Mormon is speaking literally and not symbolically about the skin color issue, I tripped to something yesterday in 2 Nephi 30 that does indicate a symbolic meaning may be intended.

2 Nephi 30:6--"And then shall they (the latter-day converted Lamanites) rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people."

(Note that "white" was changed to "pure" in the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon, but it is my understanding that the original manuscript had "pure" before it was subsequently changed to "white." This alone may suggest a perceived equivalence of the two adjectives on the part of the editor.)

It is clear from the passage that "scales of darkness" falling "from their eyes" is not meant to be taken literally, which lends credence to the idea that the following description of converted Lamanites becoming "white and delightsome" was intended figuratively, as well.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


Unfortunately the Book of Mormon has been to specific that one can only reasonable conclude it is saying the lamanites were given a dark skin. The Book of Mormon fits 19th century thinking to well.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy wrote:There. Now you can get back to watching Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS between postings.


Not everyone shares your bad taste in media, Droopy. I have no idea what that is.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_thews
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _thews »

consiglieri wrote:Although I have traditionally thought that the Book of Mormon is speaking literally and not symbolically about the skin color issue, I tripped to something yesterday in 2 Nephi 30 that does indicate a symbolic meaning may be intended.

2 Nephi 30:6--"And then shall they (the latter-day converted Lamanites) rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people."

(Note that "white" was changed to "pure" in the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon, but it is my understanding that the original manuscript had "pure" before it was subsequently changed to "white." This alone may suggest a perceived equivalence of the two adjectives on the part of the editor.)

It is clear from the passage that "scales of darkness" falling "from their eyes" is not meant to be taken literally, which lends credence to the idea that the following description of converted Lamanites becoming "white and delightsome" was intended figuratively, as well.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

In accepting your analogy in the above,one would have to assume "dark" and "darkness" mean the same thing metaphorically. Conversely, "white and delightsome" is different metaphorically, as it doesn't refer to their souls, but rather the color of their outside skin.

To further negate your patchwork reverse-engineered out, let's see how the use of the words were used in other places:

http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm
2 Nephi 5: 21

'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'


In the above, does this support your observation? How about this one...

3 Nephi 2:15

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."


Pretty cut and dry aye. With curse skin = dark, without curse skin = white.

Just in case you need a little more convincing:

http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm
Jacob 3: 5, 8-9

5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.
Moses 7:22

And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.


In conclusion, the outright lies that BCspace and ldsfaqs continue to present ignore the direct references to skin color. If your observation has any merit, it would also include the above references in attempting to explain away the use of skin color vs. a metaphorical use of darkness. Sorry, but your turd polish can attempt to make it shiny, but it's still a turd and Mormon doctrine is racist to the core.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_beastie
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _beastie »

bc and droopy remind me of this recent event: the woman who designed a bumpersticker against Obama saying "don't re-nig" claims that it's not racist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/1 ... f=politics
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_Morley
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _Morley »

beastie wrote:bc and droopy remind me of this recent event: the woman who designed a bumpersticker against Obama saying "don't re-nig" claims that it's not racist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/1 ... f=politics


Thank you, beastie. I was interested in the last paragraph of the article:

"And besides Obama is not even black," Smith added. "He's got a mixture of race. It's his choice of what his nationality is. I'm a mixed breed. I call myself a Heinz 57."


bcspace should love this. He, too, claims that Obama isn't black.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=564168#p564168
_consiglieri
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _consiglieri »

Themis wrote:Unfortunately the Book of Mormon has been to specific that one can only reasonable conclude it is saying the Lamanites were given a dark skin. The Book of Mormon fits 19th century thinking to well.


I agree that a straightforward reading of the text would indicate as much.

If it were just that one reference I cited, it might be different.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_thews
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _thews »

consiglieri wrote:
Themis wrote:Unfortunately the Book of Mormon has been to specific that one can only reasonable conclude it is saying the Lamanites were given a dark skin. The Book of Mormon fits 19th century thinking to well.


I agree that a straightforward reading of the text would indicate as much.

If it were just that one reference I cited, it might be different.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

But it's not "just that one" reference, so why do you continue to theorize how a square peg could fit in a round hole, if it were only round, when it's not round?
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_badseed
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Re: Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

Post by _badseed »

consiglieri wrote:(Note that "white" was changed to "pure" in the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon, but it is my understanding that the original manuscript had "pure" before it was subsequently changed to "white." This alone may suggest a perceived equivalence of the two adjectives on the part of the editor.)


Actually if I'm not mistaken the printers manuscript actually contains 'white and delightsome' as does the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith did change white to 'pure' in one edition — the 1840 edition — but after his death it was changed back later by the LDS Church leadership. I don't know exactly when that was...or how long it was until the 1981 changes.

See manuscript here: http://www.mormonwiki.org/File:Pmss_whi ... people.JPG

Anyone else know when it was changed back to "white?"
Crawling around the evidence in order to maintain a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

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