I'm curious what you think about other alternative hypothesis' from the JEDP evaluation of the Abraham account? For example, that Abraham may have decided on his own to sacrifice the ram when he saw it in the thicket and the second message of the angel being added to make it appear that God brought this about rather than it being an act of disobedience on Abraham's part?
Is it your view that the most compelling evidence comes from the return of Abraham without mentioning Issac? or is there other information embedded in the accounts as they break down between authors that you feel push us in your direction?
I'd be interested to hear your (and your Reb's) point of view on this, too. I always took the Abraham/Isaac/ram story to be an apocryphal narrative about the end of human sacrifice among the Israelites.
huckelberry wrote: Thinking about what sort of limitations could be involved in creation, perhaps it is easier to look first at the clearer or more observable idea that creation works as a whole. It is not composed of parts choosen off of a shelf but instead is composed parts which all share their nature in relationship with all of the other parts in creation.Whatever extent God has to choose the shape of creation to start with. That choice entails enourmous lmitation as a consequence. To try to step out of that family of beings order of things would result perhaps in chaos and for people in those fragmented artificial representations of people which Stak suggested would be the result of resurection.
You seem to be putting God somewhat outside of creation--or as a co-creator with laws that were already in place. Your answer to the problem of evil seems to be that God has no choice.
I don't know what this means: "To try to step out of that family of beings order of things would result perhaps in chaos and for people in those fragmented artificial representations of people which Stak suggested would be the result of resurection." Clarification?
Clarifiation? We live within a system of cause and effect. I am a result of my parents my friends and the world around me in relationship to my own choices and actions. I am uncertain as to in what way this would be uncertain.
I am thinking from a tradtional Christian view in which creation is a result of God so in that sense God is outside of creation. God preceeds creation and is not dependent on creation. Creation functions by rules of relationship and cause and effect. Those are a result of Gods creation.
Morley wrote:You seem to be putting God somewhat outside of creation--or as a co-creator with laws that were already in place. Your answer to the problem of evil seems to be that God has no choice.
I don't know what this means: "To try to step out of that family of beings order of things would result perhaps in chaos and for people in those fragmented artificial representations of people which Stak suggested would be the result of resurection." Clarification?
Clarifiation? We live within a system of cause and effect. I am a result of my parents my friends and the world around me in relationship to my own choices and actions. I am uncertain as to in what way this would be uncertain.
I am thinking from a tradtional Christian view in which creation is a result of God so in that sense God is outside of creation. God preceeds creation and is not dependent on creation. Creation functions by rules of relationship and cause and effect. Those are a result of Gods creation.
If so, then He has control of everything. If He doesn't, it's because He set it up so that He cedes control--which is a chicken crap way out for a supreme being. If things are screwed up, it would still be His fault for setting things up that way. Why would He do that?
huckelberry wrote:I am thinking from a tradtional Christian view in which creation is a result of God so in that sense God is outside of creation. God preceeds creation and is not dependent on creation. Creation functions by rules of relationship and cause and effect. Those are a result of Gods creation.
My question is this: Is it more correct to look at creation and attempt to deduce from it information about God? Or is it more correct to look at God (as you believe Him/Her/It to be) and induce meaning from this understanding into creation?
Thanks.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Morley wrote:If so, then He has control of everything. If He doesn't, it's because He set it up so that He cedes control--which is a chicken s*** way out for a supreme being. If things are screwed up, it would still be His fault for setting things up that way. Why would He do that?
God ceded some control to humans and to you. take the responsibility.
My question is this: Is it more correct to look at creation and attempt to deduce from it information about God? Or is it more correct to look at God (as you believe Him/Her/It to be) and induce meaning from this understanding into creation?
Thanks.
Hi honorntheos. Something to that question but I am not going to have a perfect balanced response. I think looking at creation is very important to an understanding of God. If one thinks God created the world around us it should have important reflections of God in it. A Bible consisting only of the world around us is tempting but perhaps lacks some direction in how to read it.
Morley wrote:If so, then He has control of everything. If He doesn't, it's because He set it up so that He cedes control--which is a chicken s*** way out for a supreme being. If things are screwed up, it would still be His fault for setting things up that way. Why would He do that?
God ceded some control to humans and to you. take the responsibility.
I can't--that's your belief system, not mine. Though I really do try to take responsibility for the ramifications of what I believe.
Your system is like a parent giving set of anonymous, ambiguous written rules to a houseful of ten-year-olds and then leaving them on their own for a month. He shouldn't be surprised when he returns and finds chaos.
Only in the model you subscribe to, said chaos is the Holocaust. And Darfur. And the Khmer Rouge. And child starvation. And AIDS.
I sound harsh, however, I have sympathy with your view. But I don't understand it.
Morley wrote:Your system is like a parent giving set of anonymous, ambiguous written rules to a houseful of ten-year-olds and then leaving them on their own for a month. He shouldn't be surprised when he returns and finds chaos.
Only in the model you subscribe to, said chaos is the Holocaust. And Darfur. And the Khmer Rouge. And child starvation. And AIDS.
We have been given the opportunity to explore worlds, create civilizations, create friends lovers children, cities, gardens, all sorts of music art, stories and barbecues with chicken and beer in the afternoon. What in the world do anonymous ambiguous written rules have to do with anything? We are saved by faith and faith is to live with courage to create good for one another not to be dragged around by the nose on a list of trashy rules.
My model has holocaust etc? Do you live in a world without such problems?
huckelberry wrote:We have been given the opportunity to explore worlds, create civilizations, create friends lovers children, cities, gardens, all sorts of music art, stories and barbecues with chicken and beer in the afternoon.
I so agree. Except you left out fly fishing.
huckelberry wrote:What in the world do anonymous ambiguous written rules have to do with anything? We are saved by faith and faith is to live with courage to create good for one another not to be dragged around by the nose on a list of trashy rules.
My model has holocaust etc? Do you live in a world without such problems?
My model doesn't give God responsibility. In my model it's all ours.
edit: I love the concept of God too much to have a crippled or stupid God.
Morley wrote: I so agree. Except you left out fly fishing.
But I would never leave fly fishing out of my plans for the coming year. Hope you have time to keep such plans as well. By fate we may meet on Kelly Creek, NF Clearwater.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.