Tobin wrote:And who told you that? They did, not the Lord. It is time we dispense with unsound doctrines like this and rely on God. The reason the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy, seeing, revelating, healing, and so on are infrequent or rare in the Church is because Mormons have replaced true faith in God with faith in men which is foolish as you can see. After all, how many silly and ridiculous things has the Church fallen into over the past two centuries because of this?
You mean the silly and ridiculous things like Joseph teaching we can become Gods, or polygamy.
So where does Kimball, Snow, and others go wrong? They make the mistake of stating that man will govern their own worlds and be God. This can never happen since we are simply incapable. WE CAN assist God in the creation of worlds and one of those ways is in the organizing of spirit children for those worlds, but this process is driven and directed by God (not exalted man). In fact, this exact process was involved in the formation of this world.
And how is it that tobin is getting it right but not Joseph Smith or all the leaders after him.
I know what feels right and what other Mormons have expressed on this topic that have helped shape my views though.
What? How can this be? You mean you are not asking God on these topics but doing as others are and going with what feels right. Scandalous.
malkie wrote:Tobin, I think that one of the big problems is not that the leaders of the church are human, fallible, etc. It's that, after all we have been told about how they will never lead us astray (not in the lord's program), how can they be so wrong for so long.
Tobin wrote:And who told you that? They did, not the Lord. It is time we dispense with unsound doctrines like this and rely on God. The reason the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy, seeing, revelating, healing, and so on are infrequent or rare in the Church is because Mormons have replaced true faith in God with faith in men which is foolish as you can see. After all, how many silly and ridiculous things has the Church fallen into over the past two centuries because of this?
And I don't mean speaking to God like many Mormons say it. I often hear that people pray and feel like they should do something that is disastrous. I mean members should learn the truth like Christ taught it - using knowledge, reason, and "true" inspiration from God. After all, the truth should be reasonable and consistent with what we know and fulfilling. Often times Mormons are guilty of believing ridiculous things for no other reason then they felt it was true (or more commonly, their leaders said so).
Tobin
I like your approach. But it is not what the Church teaches at all. It is not what those who lead would have its members believe. Your approach is certainly not orthodox at all. Most members don't but it. They believe the leaders when they say we won't lead you astray. They believe what comes out of their mouths. So again, what you say is great and I am glad you have found a way to make Mormonism work for you. But to act is if your view and understanding is what the Church really is seems nonsensical to me.
I like your approach. But it is not what the Church teaches at all. It is not what those who lead would have its members believe. Your approach is certainly not orthodox at all. Most members don't but it. They believe the leaders when they say we won't lead you astray. They believe what comes out of their mouths. So again, what you say is great and I am glad you have found a way to make Mormonism work for you. But to act is if your view and understanding is what the Church really is seems nonsensical to me.
Well said.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Jason Bourne wrote:I like your approach. But it is not what the Church teaches at all. It is not what those who lead would have its members believe. Your approach is certainly not orthodox at all. Most members don't but it. They believe the leaders when they say we won't lead you astray. They believe what comes out of their mouths. So again, what you say is great and I am glad you have found a way to make Mormonism work for you. But to act is if your view and understanding is what the Church really is seems nonsensical to me.
I guess it depends on your view of the Church. I view the Church simply as an association of members that believe similar things.
Now, you might not find my view appealing or sensical. Maybe you feel a Church needs the leaders to define and control what their members believe. I don't think that is true for the Church of God however. I think the members only need God and that the leaders should simply serve and not rule or dictate.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I guess it depends on your view of the Church. I view the Church simply as an association of members that believe similar things.
Now, you might not find my view appealing or sensical. Maybe you feel a Church needs the leaders to define and control what their members believe. I don't think that is true for the Church of God however. I think the members only need God and that the leaders should simply serve and not rule or dictate.
No, no your view is appealing to me. I like it. But I am viewed by the more staunch LDS here as a hypocritical apostate cafeteria NOM like Mormon. I am more like you. Lots I pick and choose from and ignore. I am just saying what you portray is NOT anything at all like what the Church is or what those who control it portray it to be. Most of those in the pews would disagree with your views and mine. That is all I am saying. But when you argue your point you argue it as if it is the predominant view and that it should be or is mostly accepted. That is not the case which is my point.
Tobin wrote:I guess it depends on your view of the Church. I view the Church simply as an association of members that believe similar things.
Now, you might not find my view appealing or sensical. Maybe you feel a Church needs the leaders to define and control what their members believe. I don't think that is true for the Church of God however. I think the members only need God and that the leaders should simply serve and not rule or dictate.
No, no your view is appealing to me. I like it. But I am viewed by the more staunch LDS here as a hypocritical apostate cafeteria NOM like Mormon. I am more like you. Lots I pick and choose from and ignore. I am just saying what you portray is NOT anything at all like what the Church is or what those who control it portray it to be. Most of those in the pews would disagree with your views and mine. That is all I am saying. But when you argue your point you argue it as if it is the predominant view and that it should be or is mostly accepted. That is not the case which is my point.
I agree. It is unfortunately true that there is a leadership cult in the Church. But I think that we are witnessing it in its death throes and it will eventually disappear over time. I don't see much of a future for Mormon, Inc.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I agree. It is unfortunately true that there is a leadership cult in the Church. But I think that we are witnessing it in its death throes and it will eventually disappear over time. I don't see much of a future for Mormon, Inc.
There is something to dream and hope for. Death to the leadership cult in Mormonism. A cult of personality that lacks personality.
On that topic, I have become increasingly convinced that Mitt Romney embodies the evils of our times. He is a kind of anti-Christ. I know that sounds extreme, but if ever there was a person who personified the hollow, soulless, unprincipled spirit of American vulture capitalism in its Mormon form, it is Mitt.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
I like your approach. But it is not what the Church teaches at all. It is not what those who lead would have its members believe. Your approach is certainly not orthodox at all. Most members don't but it. They believe the leaders when they say we won't lead you astray. They believe what comes out of their mouths. So again, what you say is great and I am glad you have found a way to make Mormonism work for you. But to act is if your view and understanding is what the Church really is seems nonsensical to me.
It's also not what Joseph taught. If members can come up with their own ideas on what the scriptures and such mean you will just end up with a splintered church. It is really why so many churches including the LDS break apart. It sounds good in theory, but the problem is it is really just their own brains coming up with their own ideas. Tobin keeps avoiding this issue.
If I ever felt like going back to the church of my youth, that is a problem that is slowly but surely taking care of itself, as the church of my youth essentially erases itself bit by bit as the years go by.
There's precious little temptation even to consider going back, and the church is doing its part to kill off what meager hope yet remains.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
