Is the portrayal of Joseph Smith fair?

[_Mary]

In the UK there are Muslim polygamists, and I'm not sure that anyone blinks an eye.

I mean, I don't like it, and I certainly don't subscribe to the view that it is the order of heaven, but live and let live and all that.

I have to say that having watched the interview with Daniel Peterson all the way through, I really, really like his way of seeing the world, even if I can't agree with all the truth claims of the church.

[_Yoda]

In the UK there are Muslim polygamists, and I'm not sure that anyone blinks an eye.

I mean, I don't like it, and I certainly don't subscribe to the view that it is the order of heaven, but live and let live and all that.

I have to say that having watched the interview with Daniel Peterson all the way through, I really, really like his way of seeing the world, even if I can't agree with all the truth claims of the church.

Thanks for bringing the video to our attention, Mary. I will have to watch it this evening. I can't watch it from work.

And, I agree with you about Dan.

The reason that polyandry made much less sense to me than polygamy was because the polyandry was practiced with men who were good members of the Church. They also held the priesthood. There was no reason why their wives could not have been sealed to them.

My understanding is that Joseph greatly misunderstood the sealing principle when it was first initiated, which was why he did initiate a lot of dynastic sealings. He had men and women sealed to him so that they would all be part of the same family in the hereafter. He felt that this was the only way that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom. However, this isn't even entirely consistent because there were other priesthood holders who were allowed to take more than one wife, and other priesthood holders sealed to their one and only wife.

There is also the "trading up" factor which Brigham Young put into place. A plural wife of an apostle was of a higher social status than a single wife of a Sunday School teacher. Men in higher priesthood callings had "first dibs" on the single women to marry. Also..if a woman who was married to a Sunday School teacher wanted to leave her husband and be sealed as a plural wife to a Bishop, that was allowed.

As you pointed out, Mary, with breaking the law of chastity being second only to murder, these types of activities seem sorely out of place.

[_Drifting]

My understanding is that Joseph greatly misunderstood the sealing principle when it was first initiated, which was why he did initiate a lot of dynastic sealings. He had men and women sealed to him so that they would all be part of the same family in the hereafter. He felt that this was the only way that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom. However, this isn't even entirely consistent because there were other priesthood holders who were allowed to take more than one wife, and other priesthood holders sealed to their one and only wife.

Liz - what evidence points to Joseph misunderstanding the sealing process and how does that fit with the relationship with Fanny being before the sealing keys were restored?

What evidence points to Joseph have men sealed to him?

What evidence points to Joseph having the feeling that sealing men and women was the only way for them to be together in the CK?

[_Dantana]

So, If Joseph married these wives not to raise up seed..... For what then? Would it be for to assemble his eternal harem for...raising spirit babies, for populating future planets....Which I'm not sure we teach?

[_Yoda]

My understanding is that Joseph greatly misunderstood the sealing principle when it was first initiated, which was why he did initiate a lot of dynastic sealings. He had men and women sealed to him so that they would all be part of the same family in the hereafter. He felt that this was the only way that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom. However, this isn't even entirely consistent because there were other priesthood holders who were allowed to take more than one wife, and other priesthood holders sealed to their one and only wife.

Liz - what evidence points to Joseph misunderstanding the sealing process and how does that fit with the relationship with Fanny being before the sealing keys were restored?

What evidence points to Joseph have men sealed to him?

What evidence points to Joseph having the feeling that sealing men and women was the only way for them to be together in the CK?

I will have to look up the various sources I have read. There are records of Joseph being sealed to other men.

As far as the sealing keys being restored....there seems to be a conflict with the time table. The documentation of the sealing keys being restored happened after Fanny, but my understanding is that the apologetic answer is that the sealing keys actually existed before that time. It was just not recorded for a period. Please understand that I don't buy that explanation. I am just trying to sort through all of the different possibilities here.

[_Drifting]

I will have to look up the various sources I have read. There are records of Joseph being sealed to other men.

As far as the sealing keys being restored....there seems to be a conflict with the time table. The documentation of the sealing keys being restored happened after Fanny, but my understanding is that the apologetic answer is that the sealing keys actually existed before that time. It was just not recorded for a period. Please understand that I don't buy that explanation. I am just trying to sort through all of the different possibilities here.

Thanks Liz, I am interested in the sources.

As for Fanny, I think it is significant that she is not down as one of Joseph wives as far as FamilySeacrch is concerned...

[_Yoda]

So, If Joseph married these wives not to raise up seed..... For what then? Would it be for to assemble his eternal harem for...raising spirit babies, for populating future planets....Which I'm not sure we teach?

Exactly, Tana.

Since marriage and family are eternal, the concept is that Joseph and his wives would be able to have, and raise children in the Celestial Kingdom.

Gaz, a TBM poster who I haven't seen post here in a long time, and I have had many conversations about this. As he explained, when a man is righteous, he receives more blessings. The greatest blessings involve family and children. Therefore, if he is righteous with one wife, he will be blessed with more in the next life.

My argument with him is that this concept objectifies women, and I don't believe that a caring Heavenly Father would view women in that way.

[_Fence Sitter]

The reason that polyandry made much less sense to me than polygamy was because the polyandry was practiced with men who were good members of the Church. They also held the priesthood. There was no reason why their wives could not have been sealed to them.

My understanding is that Joseph greatly misunderstood the sealing principle when it was first initiated, which was why he did initiate a lot of dynastic sealings. He had men and women sealed to him so that they would all be part of the same family in the hereafter. He felt that this was the only way that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom. However, this isn't even entirely consistent because there were other priesthood holders who were allowed to take more than one wife, and other priesthood holders sealed to their one and only wife.

There is also the "trading up" factor which Brigham Young put into place. A plural wife of an apostle was of a higher social status than a single wife of a Sunday School teacher. Men in higher priesthood callings had "first dibs" on the single women to marry. Also..if a woman who was married to a Sunday School teacher wanted to leave her husband and be sealed as a plural wife to a Bishop, that was allowed.


As you pointed out, Mary, with breaking the law of chastity being second only to murder, these types of activities seem sorely out of place.

Liz,

I don't think Joseph Smith misunderstood what he was doing (at least in the Nauvoo era). I think he viewed sealing in an entirely different manner than what the Church practices today. as far as I know BY & John Taylor continued to view the sealing process as a earthly dynastic building process and thought they were collecting the basis for their heavenly kingdom here on earth. (I love BY's remark about how some Elders would seal themselves to the devil if they were given the chance! And how John Taylor didn't want to be sealed to his own father because his father was only an Elder!) It was not until the Wilford Woodruff era that the emphasis moved toward sealing based only on bloodlines.

I can think of two reasons that contributed to this change. First a gradual movement away from millennialism. And secondly they realized how much contention and competition dynasty building was causing within the church.

[_Yoda]

I can think of two reasons that contributed to this change. First a gradual movement away from millennialism. And secondly they realized how much contention and competition dynasty building was causing within the church.

Yeah, the second is kind of a given. I don't understand why it would take so long to realize that the contention and the competition was not a good thing.

When you say millennialism, are you referring to a de-emphasis on the Second Coming? Or a de-emphasis on life in the Celestial Kingdom? Or something different?

[_Fence Sitter]

I can think of two reasons that contributed to this change. First a gradual movement away from millennialism. And secondly they realized how much contention and competition dynasty building was causing within the church.

Yeah, the second is kind of a given. I don't understand why it would take so long to realize that the contention and the competition was not a good thing.

When you say millennialism, are you referring to a de-emphasis on the Second Coming? Or a de-emphasis on life in the Celestial Kingdom? Or something different?

I am referring to a de-emphasis on the Second Coming. I think the dynasty building was being done in the early Church with the belief that many alive at the time would see the second coming and that they had very little time to put together their earthly kingdom, so one needed to grab as many people as possible regardless of if they were blood relatives or not. As it became more and more apparent that Christ wasn't showing up soon I think that affected the urgency they felt to gather a kingdom.

As a side note, I wonder if anyone has done any work showing how the LDS Church beliefs and practices were/are affected by a de-emphasis on the Second Coming? I have seen one paper on this regarding the RLDS. I think part of the reason the RLDS are now the Community of Christ is because they held on to a literal gathering of Zion and Millennialism well into the 20th century. The failure to accomplish either, I think, was part of the reason they started to re-evaluate their beliefs. That process has been a lot more gradual in the LDS Church.