davidlory on youtube regarding Adam-God

[_kamenraider]

I came across a video on youtube where a guy with the username davidlory was discussing Adam-God. I watched his 45 min. video and then made a few comments on it. The problem is that there is a 500 character limit on each comment, and it was difficult to be that succinct and still be understood when discussing such a complex subject. I invited davidlory over here to discuss this without the hindrance of a character limit. He believes that Jesus Christ had lived on another world in another body as a father to Michael or Adam before he came here and was born as Jesus Christ. I don't believe that Brigham Young taught that. Anyone else can feel free to jump in and comment.

Here is a link to the video comments:

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=BIE6J-mKPro

[_consiglieri]

Thanks for posting that, Kamenraider. I hope to have a chance to give it a listen.

I agree that, the recent Mormon Expression podcast notwithstanding, Brigham Young never taught that Jesus had lived on a prior world. In fact, he was pretty clear that Jesus was born spiritually as the first begotten of Michael in the premortal existence, so in fact BY seems to have ruled out that possibility.

But I kind of like the idea. It helps resolve more issues than it raises, to my mind.

I hope this fellow takes you up on your invitation to take a dip in the Mormon Discussions pool.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_kamenraider]

I left another comment and invited davidlory over here. I don't know if he'll come or not. If he does, maybe he could give a brief summary of his take on Adam-God for those who don't have 45 minutes to watch the video. I'm going to be busy today but should be able to get back to this thread tonight.

[_bcspace]

The very use of the term "Adam-God" means it's probably something BY never taught.

[_consiglieri]

You are right, bc.

Brigham Young never taught that Adam is God.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_bcspace]

the Father. That's right.

[_Jason Bourne]

The very use of the term "Adam-God" means it's probably something BY never taught.

Keep believing this. I know it helps keep your testimony intact.

[_kamenraider]

Here are my comments on the video and davidlory's responses put in order:

kamenraider- David, you're all mixed up. Brigham Young DID identify Michael/Adam with the title Holy Ghost:
"Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and IN ORGANIZING ELEMENT, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." --J.D. 1:51.
In other words, the "Jehovah" and "Elohim" in the endowment were Adam/Michael's Father and Savior on the world he came from -- "the old one where we used to live."

davidlory- I don't agree. I think you stuck on the words "perfectly represented" because you interpret them as "are." He didn't say these three ARE these three. So, you're probably wrong. Joseph Smith is a better candidate for Holy Ghost than Adam. Or the Holy Ghost is more than one person since we going on pure speculation here. The Holy Ghost is the Testator or Witness God. How does Michael fit that on this earth?

kamenraider- I believe that Elohim, Jehovah and Michael WERE represented as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost "in organizing element," (that's why I capitalized those words) but that Michael, Jesus, and Joseph Smith ARE in those positions now. So do you believe that Brigham Young DID NOT teach that Jesus was the firstborn spirit son of Michael/Adam?

davidlory- That's interesting. No, Adam is not the Father of Jesus' spirit. Brigham never taught that.

kamenraider- Did Brigham Young teach that Adam/Michael was the father of the spirit of Jesus Christ? Yes:
"When the time came that His first-born, the Savior, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favored that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Savior was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me." --JD 4:218

kamenraider- Another quote regarding Jesus Christ as the Firstborn spirit son of Adam:
"Adam's descent was to organize people & redeem a world, by his wife he peopled it by his first born he redeems." --Brigham Young, October 8, 1854, Journal of the Southern Indian Mission, pgs. 87- 89.

This shows that redeeming of worlds is done by people during their mortal probation, not after they are exalted and resurrected.

davidlory- That quote does not say what you suggest.

kamenraider- "I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for." --Joseph Smith, HC 6:478.

If we as Sons of God could exalt ourselves to be Gods from before the foundation of the world, without being reincarnated, then why could not Jesus?

davidlory- That is a big leap that I don't agree with. Clearly, not all gods are equal.

kamenraider- One thing I think you're hung up on is Jesus being Jehovah. Both the Father and Son are referred to as Jehovah, or more accurately YHWH, in the scriptures. The Jehovah in the endowment ceremony is a third person so referred to. YHWH in Hebrew is a mixture of the past, present, and future forms of the word meaning "to exist." Two letters, "yud" and "vav" are associated with male symbolism, and one, "heh," with female. Each of us will have this title if/when we'll stand at the head of a new world.

Yes, Jesus Christ is superior to Michael/Adam in regard to Michael/Adam's direct probationary relationship to this world because Jesus Christ is His Savior here. That's how this will come to be Jesus' world in eternity. A Bishop, although acting in an office of the lesser Aaronic Priesthood can still preside over an Elder by virtue of also holding the office of High Priest in the greater Melchizedek Priesthood. Adam is the Father of our spirits and bodies, and Jesus is the Father of our salvation.

davidlory- I already know this and if you'd watched the video, then you would know that I know this.

kamenraider- I did watch the whole 45 minute video. Maybe I'm not making myself clear in the comments, but the character limit is a problem.

[_kamenraider]

This is a diagram davidlory drew to help explain his ideas. He says that Elohim is the father of spirits, as represented in the middle column, but that he is the Grandfather of our bodies, as is shown in the right column, and that Jehovah was the Father of Adam's body on an older earth and became the Son of Adam on this earth in another body (he evidently believes in reincarnation). He finished by saying that he does not pray to Adam but to Elohim (which, to me, sounds similar to the heretical twist put on Adam-God by Rulon Jeffs). It doesn't make sense to me, and I wonder if it even does to davidlory.

[_Fence Sitter]

You have to admit he does know how to include professional looking charts to make his point.