CS Monitor: "The Coming Evangelical Collapse"

[_Darth J]

Thoughts? Is the LDS Church involved in this trend (if you agree such a trend exists)?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... -coop.html

(Yes, I know this is from three years ago.)

[_RayAgostini]

Thoughts? Is the LDS Church involved in this trend (if you agree such a trend exists)?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... -coop.html

(Yes, I know this is from three years ago.)

How can the LDS Church be involved in this trend, when Evangelicals have been Mitt Romney's most vocal critics?

Does anyone here seriously believe that Romney, if he attains the US presidency, will pursue it with Evangelical fervor? Do you seriously think that preaching "God" will be Romney's first priority?

That's a serious problem with some of you ex-Mormons - you associate fundamentalism with Mormonism, because it makes Mormonism an easier target, without going into a more detailed analysis. Lumping them with Evangelicals is so convenient, and makes them such an easy target. That is your vain wish.

7 We believe that rulers, states, and governments have a right, and are bound to enact laws for the protection of all citizens in the free exercise of their religious belief; but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions, so long as a regard and reverence are shown to the laws and such religious opinions do not justify sedition nor conspiracy. (D&C 134:7)

You, Darth, become a sadder and sadder case of traditional anti-Mormonism with every post you do here. You'd do anything to make Mormons look like deluded fools, even when it means grasping at downright stupid parallels.

[_Drifting]

The trends in Mormonism seem to be an ever decreasing circle of active 18 to 30's coupled with a ratio change involving a reduction in active males. At some point it will become a predominantly female active membership (more than it is at present).

[_BartBurk]

Thoughts? Is the LDS Church involved in this trend (if you agree such a trend exists)?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... -coop.html

(Yes, I know this is from three years ago.)

I don't think has anything to do with the LDS. If anything, some of the evangelicals will flee to the LDS because there is an authority structure which is missing in evangelical churches.

[_Aristotle Smith]

Thoughts? Is the LDS Church involved in this trend (if you agree such a trend exists)?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... -coop.html

(Yes, I know this is from three years ago.)

I've actually spent quite a large amount of time thinking about this one. By the way, the CS Monitor article was based on a lengthier three part blog post done by the author of the article:

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the ... apse-posts

The author was a great guy who sadly passed away from cancer (in his 50's) about a year after the article was published at the CS Monitor.

Anyway, about your question. I've gone back and forth on this one, but I think that the answer ultimately is, "No." Mormons have their own problems and the heyday of Mormon missionary work is over, at least for a good long while, but the issues which are causing problems in Evangelicalism are different from those causing problems in Mormonism. Both may suffer a collapse in the near future, brought on by living in an increasingly secular society, but I think the mechanisms of a possible collapse will be different in both camps.

Take the first two examples Spenser gives in the fuller blog post version. Evangelicals have really been movers and shakers in the cultural war. While Mormons largely agree with the values of the Evangelical cultural warriors, they have largely stayed away from it (probably because Mormons don't like Evangelicals that much, and the feeling is reciprocated). The ERA and Prop 8 are really aberrations when it comes to Mormon involvement in the political sphere. Thus any fallout from being culture warriors will not affect Mormons nearly so much as it has Evangelicals.

A second cause is that Evangelicals have failed to pass on a robust theology to their kids, they have mainly passed on a shallow emotionalism. The idea is that there is a well-defined and robust theology, but the kids don't know it. Contrast that with Mormonism where emotionalism is the high point of theology and doctrine is gleefully changed by apologists and watered down by correlation. Spenser sees a failure to communicate the past as detrimental to Evangelicals, Mormons call it "continuing revelation." The difference between the two is that one could always strike out on your own and teach the old time religion in Evangelicalism, but people have failed to do so. In Mormonism, if you strike out on your own and teach the old time religion, you get excommunicated. There are surface similarities, but the dynamics in the two groups play out very differently.

There's more, but I hope I have communicated the gist of the thoughts.

[_Darth J]

Thoughts? Is the LDS Church involved in this trend (if you agree such a trend exists)?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... -coop.html

(Yes, I know this is from three years ago.)

How can the LDS Church be involved in this trend, when Evangelicals have been Mitt Romney's most vocal critics?

Does anyone here seriously believe that Romney, if he attains the US presidency, will pursue it with Evangelical fervor? Do you seriously think that preaching "God" will be Romney's first priority?

That's a serious problem with some of you ex-Mormons - you associate fundamentalism with Mormonism, because it makes Mormonism an easier target, without going into a more detailed analysis. Lumping them with Evangelicals is so convenient, and makes them such an easy target. That is your vain wish.

7 We believe that rulers, states, and governments have a right, and are bound to enact laws for the protection of all citizens in the free exercise of their religious belief; but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions, so long as a regard and reverence are shown to the laws and such religious opinions do not justify sedition nor conspiracy. (D&C 134:7)

You, Darth, become a sadder and sadder case of traditional anti-Mormonism with every post you do here. You'd do anything to make Mormons look like deluded fools, even when it means grasping at downright stupid parallels.

Not since the last time you posted something have I seen such a fine example of being a fanatically sanctimonious drama queen.

The article is about societal attitudes toward organized religion. No reasonable person could have inferred your irrelevancies from the OP or my question about it. I didn't say anything about Mitt Romney, and not only is Romney not relevant to the OP, I'm on record on this board as saying that my presidential candidate of choice was Jon Huntsman, Jr.---and he's a little bit Mormon. Referring to what the LDS Church purports to believe is meaningless as well, since it is the actions, not the platitudes, of the LDS Church that matter. The Church does in fact tell members how to vote on substantive issues. E.g., the ERA, Proposition 8, parimutuel betting in Utah, the Church lobbying Utah state legislators.

I did not assert a parallel. I asked if anyone thought there was one. That is a legitimate question, since the author is commenting on society's increasing secularism, and because orthodox Latter-day Saints in the U.S. generally adopt political stances that are indistinguishable from the religious right.

Did the space aliens leave something inside when they probed you, or have you always been this way?

[_Bond James Bond]

I see it coming. Not within ten years (still too many old conservatives born out of the Cold War era when Christianity + politics = good American vs atheism + politics = bad Communists) but probably within fifty years. There will definitely be a shift socially. I think if Christianity (and Mormonism) wish to survive they will have to co-opt more equality into their stances. More tolerance of homosexuality as well as more "looking the other way" regarding women's freedom and position in society.

I think if Christianity is going to survive it's going to have to distance itself and set its self apart from mainstream secular society. The reason is that most people (young people especially) once they get a taste of secularism enjoy it. Less rigid thinking. The ability to be a cafeteria whatever compared to holding onto dogma three thousand years old is preferable to most people.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Evangelical churches-- especially Baptists-- are already beginning to lose market share, but less because of defection than because their birth rates have dropped. That was the death knell of mainline Protestantism, too.

[_mikwut]

I have a lot of agreement with the OP's article but some differences. If you hypothesize a 20th century without WWII the issues raised would have already played out. I agree with Aristotle that the similarities regarding the issues in evangelicalism don't translate well into LDS culture.

The part I definitely agree with, African "evangelicalism" or of what we would often think of as pentacostalism is a movement that reflects the real fire and rich depth of what evangelical protestantism once was. It is a beautiful thing to, that's why our ideas of pentacostalism here aren't really appropriate. I recently visited Watoto in Uganda and the entire indwelling of belief in God, Jesus and scripture is 180 degrees different than our dry academic and intellectualism towards the same. The spirit of the children and families, what they have endured and how what they understand and indwell with Jesus has literally created a dynamic community that westerners should simply kneel and cry when presented with is nothing short of beautiful.

I believe the death of what's wrong with evangelicalism will not give ground to secularism it will raise the debate with secularism to where it should have always been in the first place - traditional Christianity. Methodism has taken a hit to evangelical christians market wise the past decades, but is there a sure bet that disenfranchised evangelicals and their children don't return to traditional churches that have managed to get along quite nicely with modernism and secularism rather than secularism simply engulfing them like it does LDS? I'm not so sure, secularism has pitched its victories too many times too early for me to have that kind of confidence. It isn't pious fraud and noms - rather just misguided thinking and that can be corrected and invited by a more moderate and balanced approach. That will change the playing field of who Mormons will then wield swords with, and that battle will come just like the secular battle came to the LDS church, leaving the church holding a knife in a gun fight. There is no doubt about that. The interesting historical question will be when the extremes are shown for what they are in the secularists and evangelicals and the moderates that belong to the believing camp and the unbelieving camp then properly duke things out. Atheism has always been parasitic to the ugly forms of Christianity, it has not identity if it destroys its host - traditional moderate and balanced Christianity does have an identity.

mikwut

[_bcspace]

The rise of Islam could certainly drive people back into conservative Christianity.