Pahoran, The LDS Church is ethically challenged.

[_Drifting]

Given the timing of the change, I think it's legitimate to question the motivation for the change. Perhaps it wasn't a change of heart as much as it was an act of self preservation. Imagine what would have happened if they had not lifted the ban. Should we give the church credit for the change? Maybe we shouldn't.

Had the Church led the way in society it would have deserved credit.
It did not. It came late, trailing behind like a sulky child.
It is displaying the same behaviours with regards to equality across sexualities.

[_krose]

Years ago I walked away from the Church because I realized this policy was abhorrently wrong. But they discontinued this policy and years later I returned to the faith because this obstacle was removed. ... The Church tried to improve and that should count.

That's interesting. That change helped propel me out the door.

This about face, which so many leaders assured us would never happen (and the timing of it), made it pretty clear to me that the church was not being run by any deity worth worshipping.

I had been sucked into believing their stupid rationalizations for the ban. The sudden reversal after pressure and boycotts made it obvious that the only reason for it was racism.

[_Tobin]

That's interesting. That change helped propel me out the door.
This about face, which so many leaders assured us would never happen (and the timing of it), made it pretty clear to me that the church was not being run by any deity worth worshipping.
I had been sucked into believing their stupid rationalizations for the ban. The sudden reversal after pressure and boycotts made it obvious that the only reason for it was racism.

You left because the Church did away with a racist, man-made doctrine?!? What did you think of the Church doing away with polygamy before that? And why didn't you leave because of that? I have a hard time believing you left just because the Church actually improved. I believe you left because you had no good reason to be a Mormon in the first place. After all, it is impossible to remain a Mormon and not believe in God (nor experience such a being). That is the real reason Mormons become ex-Mormons.

[_Drifting]

That's interesting. That change helped propel me out the door.
This about face, which so many leaders assured us would never happen (and the timing of it), made it pretty clear to me that the church was not being run by any deity worth worshipping.
I had been sucked into believing their stupid rationalizations for the ban. The sudden reversal after pressure and boycotts made it obvious that the only reason for it was racism.

You left because the Church did away with a racist, man-made doctrine?!? What did you think of the Church doing away with polygamy before that? And why didn't you leave because of that? I have a hard time believing you left just because the Church actually improved. I believe you left because you had no good reason to be a Mormon in the first place. After all, it is impossible to remain a Mormon and not believe in God (nor experience such a being). That is the real reason Mormons become ex-Mormons.

No, you are missing the point.
The reversal of the ban, along with GA comments before and after, show that it wasn't from a divine source.
Which in turn shows that the Church isn't led under divine inspiration, meaning it's not what it claims to be.
People leave the Church because it is a fraud.

[_krose]

You left because the Church did away with a racist, man-made doctrine?!? What did you think of the Church doing away with polygamy before that? And why didn't you leave because of that? I have a hard time believing you left just because the Church actually improved. I believe you left because you had no good reason to be a Mormon in the first place. After all, it is impossible to remain a Mormon and not believe in God (nor experience such a being). That is the real reason Mormons become ex-Mormons.

As Drifting said, you really did miss the point. The flip-flop, which came about when BYU athletic teams were being boycotted and the church was threatened with losing its tax-exempt status, was evidence that their doctrines and policies were man made, not God directed. That was the issue.

If the "inspired" explanations by apostles had been true, the church should have stuck to its guns and its supposed true doctrine, regardless of worldly scorn and pressure. If the policy was wrong, a church led by a prophet who was truly in constant communication with a god would have reversed the error decades earlier, as bold leaders in the civil rights movement. A god who would deny generations of black Africans temple "blessings," just because none of his hand-picked prophets thought to ask, is a complete jerk.

When you say "left just because" of that, it's not the case, and it's also not what I said. It was one factor that helped tip the scale. It followed a mission experience where I met people who had just as strong a conviction that they were right (testimony) as we claimed to have, which taught me we were not as special as I had thought. And that followed two decades of life wherein no prayers were unambiguously answered, and nothing special happened spiritually, despite following all the rules to the letter.

[_Tobin]

As Drifting said, you really did miss the point. The flip-flop, which came about when BYU athletic teams were being boycotted and the church was threatened with losing its tax-exempt status, was evidence that their doctrines and policies were man made, not God directed. That was the issue.

If the "inspired" explanations by apostles had been true, the church should have stuck to its guns and its supposed true doctrine, regardless of worldly scorn and pressure. If the policy was wrong, a church led by a prophet who was truly in constant communication with a god would have reversed the error decades earlier, as bold leaders in the civil rights movement. A god who would deny generations of black Africans temple "blessings," just because none of his hand-picked prophets thought to ask, is a complete jerk.

When you say "left just because" of that, it's not the case, and it's also not what I said. It was one factor that helped tip the scale. It followed a mission experience where I met people who had just as strong a conviction that they were right (testimony) as we claimed to have, which taught me we were not as special as I had thought. And that followed two decades of life wherein no prayers were unambiguously answered, and nothing special happened spiritually, despite following all the rules to the letter.

As I said, you left because you had no belief in God and no experience with God. If you had such an experience, you wouldn't be concerned about what men in the Church teach (or don't teach). I understand you are disappointed that you never had such an experience and that is why you left, but don't pretend that isn't the reason you left. I'm amazed you stayed, joined or were interested in Mormonism in the first place without that. There is no good reason to believe in magic gold plates, people seeing angels, seeing God and so on without experiencing that yourself. Without such an experience, it is completely outside our normal experiences and a rational, reasonable person should immediately conclude it is a complete fiction, fantasy, and fraud. And I too was a missionary and took the Book of Mormon to heart. Moroni states that either God will manifest the truth of it to you, or it just isn't so. Nothing should be clearer than that.

[_Themis]

As I said, you left because you had no belief in God and no experience with God. If you had such an experience, you wouldn't be concerned about what men in the Church teach (or don't teach). I understand you are disappointed that you never had such an experience and that is why you left, but don't pretend that isn't the reason you left. I'm amazed you stayed, joined or were interested in Mormonism in the first place without that. There is no good reason to believe in magic gold plates, people seeing angels, seeing God and so on without experiencing that yourself. Without such an experience, it is completely outside our normal experiences and a rational, reasonable person should immediately conclude it is a complete fiction, fantasy, and fraud. And I too was a missionary and took the Book of Mormon to heart. Moroni states that either God will manifest the truth of it to you, or it just isn't so. Nothing should be clearer than that.

but it never worked for you either. You had already left and supposedly were being to evil that you think God had to come and stop you. Of course you seem to indicate he hasn't been by again, but seem to state so many things as certainties, including this dumb idea that seek him and he will come, when you have no evidence for this in your own life. Now you hypocritically get on other as though they never tried. Maybe you should be more open to the idea that your interpretation of that event was incorrect.

[_moksha]

This about face, which so many leaders assured us would never happen (and the timing of it), made it pretty clear to me that the church was not being run by any deity worth worshipping.

Didn't it occur to you in TBM days that racial exclusion was being practiced in the name of God? The breaking of racist assurances should have been cause for celebration rather than something faith shattering. Sort of like the hope portion of Faith, Hope and Charity.

[_hatersinmyward]

The Apostles will always be the talk of the crowd, everywhere they go, till the day they die. Yes they were lied to by their predecessors; but the fact the apostles seem to use that as an excuse to continue the lie, proves they're just plain evil.


The I'm Mormon Campaign is meant to instruct LDS people not to be ashamed of their religion and accept ridicule, Yet the Apostles go on National Television and lie.

Hypocrites!!!

[_Stormy Waters]

Didn't it occur to you in TBM days that racial exclusion was being practiced in the name of God? The breaking of racist assurances should have been cause for celebration rather than something faith shattering. Sort of like the hope portion of Faith, Hope and Charity.

I think it can be both a cause for celebration and faith shattering at the same time. It certainly was a positive step for the church, regardless of the motivation for it. But still, the church makes the claim that it is led by Prophets and ultimately by God. This is a unique burden, and it means that the prophets shouldn't be wrong about stuff like this.

It would be like if the church suddenly changed it's stance on homosexuality. in my opinion it would be a positive move, but it still goes against what has previously been said and would be a legitimate cause for doubt.