Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _Buffalo »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Evidence of the external world's existence is consistent, rational, predictable, reasonable and actionable.


Ditto idealistic accounts that everything is mental, the matrix, a demon tricking you, so on and so forth. There is nothing in your response that precludes the legion of counter examples.

You are going to have to amend your statement about justification with something else.


All of our experience with dreams, hallucinations and so forth tells us that such mind-only environments are not consistent, rational, predictable, reasonable or actionable. The rules keep changing, timelines jump all over the place, what works in one dream may not work in another.

Solipsist arguments, to me, are just a slightly more sophisticated version of the argument from ignorance. I can't prove we're not in the matrix, just like I can't prove that God didn't create the universe exactly as it looks now yesterday, complete with false memories, false evidence of age, etc.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_MrStakhanovite
_Emeritus
Posts: 5269
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Buffalo wrote:All of our experience with dreams, hallucinations and so forth tells us that such mind-only environments are not consistent, rational, predictable, reasonable or actionable. The rules keep changing, timelines jump all over the place, what works in one dream may not work in another.


My problem with this is that dreams and hallucinations don’t exhaust they types of mind only reality that could exist, and that dreams and hallucinations are examples of known distortions rather than some systematic metaphysics like F.H. Bradley.

Buffalo wrote:Solipsist arguments, to me, are just a slightly more sophisticated version of the argument from ignorance. I can't prove we're not in the matrix, just like I can't prove that God didn't create the universe exactly as it looks now yesterday, complete with false memories, false evidence of age, etc.


I’m not sure how Solipsism (my pain is the only pain that exists) is related to an argument from ignorance, could you expound on that?
_MrStakhanovite
_Emeritus
Posts: 5269
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Lulu/Corpsegrinder,

Let’s start with modality in modern metaphysics:

(P1) It is the case that Blixa is wise or that Blixa is not wise. [ ~ (W v ~W) ]

(P2) It is the case that Blixa is wise. [ W ]

(P3) It is the case that Blixa is both wise and not wise. [ W & ~W ]

P1 is what we call metaphysically necessary, it holds in every possible world in which Blixa could exist, she is wise or not wise. Like my favorite T-shirt says after stating the law of contradiction in symbolic logic, “There is no middle ground.”

P2 is what we call metaphysically contingent, there are cases where it is possible for Blixa to be wise, and there are cases where it is possible for Blixa is not wise.

P3 is what we call metaphysically impossible, there is no possible world where this could be true.

The jist of it is this: P1 has to be true, P2 might be true or false, and P3 has to be false.

Now I want to draw a careful distinction here between this concept of metaphysical necessity and contingency and other related concepts. One is physical or lawful necessity and contingency, while it is metaphysically possible that under a different set of physical laws there could be a perpetual motion machine, to build one in this universe would violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which would render such a machine physically impossible.

Another important distinction is with epistemological necessity and contingency. In the case where I’m teasing CK about a conversation we had on his face book wall (a terrible place to talk philosophy by the way), one can talk about metaphysically necessary propositions as being possibly false. For example, prior to Andrew Wiles, it was perfectly acceptable to say that Fermat’s Last Theorem could possibly be false, because there is no proof for it.

A good way to think of a brute truth is as a true proposition that is not true in virtue of anything else. I think metaphysical necessity captures this concept well, nothing really makes (P1) true, where as a certain state of affairs has to obtain before P2 can be said to be true or false. I would posit that P1 is a brute truth or fact.

To draw upon the earlier post, I think one could say not only is P1 brute, but it can be used as an axiom. Of course, not all axioms are brute truths, nor are all brute truths axioms, so one has to be careful. So another way of defending an axiom from a skeptic is by saying the axiom is a brute truth.

Good to hook?
_MrStakhanovite
_Emeritus
Posts: 5269
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

lulu wrote:When we get to Hume, please drop his name in, it will be a signpost for me.


Well, in section X in Hume's Enquiry to Human Understanding, Hume famously wrote that a 'wise man proportions his belief to the evidence'. So in my opinion, Buffalo's OP was pretty much in the spirit of Hume.
_Panopticon
_Emeritus
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _Panopticon »

mikwut wrote:I like William James famous reply to it as not so narrow minded.

mikwut


James was merely saying that we are creatures of passion and sometimes have to make decisions that are consistent with our emotions.

What both James and Clifford overlook is the fact that we cannot choose to believe something. Our belief automatically scales to the evidence. Of course, different people weigh evidence differently, but it is impossible to believe in something that you know to be false.

What we can choose to do is "profess" to believe in something, but that simply means that many of us are liars.
http://www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _Buffalo »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Buffalo wrote:All of our experience with dreams, hallucinations and so forth tells us that such mind-only environments are not consistent, rational, predictable, reasonable or actionable. The rules keep changing, timelines jump all over the place, what works in one dream may not work in another.


My problem with this is that dreams and hallucinations don’t exhaust they types of mind only reality that could exist, and that dreams and hallucinations are examples of known distortions rather than some systematic metaphysics like F.H. Bradley.


Anything at all could exist. Based on what we know about dreams, they're not consistent or logical. Dreams and hallucinations do not and cannot exhaust every possibility (because possibilities are infinite), but they're representative of what is known about such phenomena.


MrStakhanovite wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Solipsist arguments, to me, are just a slightly more sophisticated version of the argument from ignorance. I can't prove we're not in the matrix, just like I can't prove that God didn't create the universe exactly as it looks now yesterday, complete with false memories, false evidence of age, etc.


I’m not sure how Solipsism (my pain is the only pain that exists) is related to an argument from ignorance, could you expound on that?


The argument from ignorance is that if a proposition has not been disproven, then it cannot be considered false, and could be true, or must be true. Solipsism seems to be often expressed in similar terms - you cannot disprove (ie it cannot be known) that everything I experience is not purely within my own mind, therefore it is so. I realize it's not a 1:1 parallel, but solipsism as I see it used on the interwebs seems to amount to an argument from ignorance.

Then again, most of my experience with solipsist arguments comes the from the rantings of Simon Belmont, so maybe I'm misunderstanding the nature of it.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Panopticon,

James was merely saying that we are creatures of passion and sometimes have to make decisions that are consistent with our emotions.


I don't think so, he was saying much more than that. Also the Victorian use of "passions" doesn't translate to mere "emotions" as we use the term today, it would include moral choices, intuitions etc... whereas today's rationality usually incorporates those within itself. Neither James or Clifford would reduce a belief or choice to mere emotion. They agreed there.

What both James and Clifford overlook is the fact that we cannot choose to believe something. Our belief automatically scales to the evidence. Of course, different people weigh evidence differently, but it is impossible to believe in something that you know to be false.


I think you misunderstand both of them because neither overlooks the ability for us to choose, Clifford insists, in his ship-owner story, the captain is morally responsible because he let his beliefs be guided by things other than the evidence by his failure to inspect. It was actions that were deplorable to Clifford and that came from failing to obtain evidence. Clifford agrees that even if beliefs are fixed or outside our faculties control that we can control action and that we have duties to act in certain ways that will automatically come when comporting with evidence, so check the ship before it hails to sea for example even if someone doesn't believe there is anything wrong. But he thinks if the belief came about without relying on good evidence then holding the belief is open to moral criticism. The biggest initial problem is - what is the evidence for holding our beliefs only with good evidence?

Clifford also recognizes that belief isn't just a private matter. He uses the analogy of an heirloom that beliefs are like. They are passed on in our language - but if we are careless about the evidence for those heirlooms we become careless about the truth - again action. He would agree that if we know the evidence the belief is axiomatic.

What we can choose to do is "profess" to believe in something, but that simply means that many of us are liars.


I don't think so. They both really talked past each other but James was more properly broad to the wide scope of how we form beliefs. He agreed with Clifford that if evidence is in accord with a belief the belief is properly formed and that whenever practically possible we should seek the truth through the evidence Clifford suggests (which was scientific) he was scientist himself. James suggested that in totality and in certain circumstances (the most meaningful to us) an axiom of withdraw until all the evidence is in, or an agnostic/weak atheist position is just as problematic as failing to obtain evidence. For example if one puts off marriage until they are certain from evidence that it will work out they could very well lose the option to marry to loved one. Today's weak atheists by the very axiom they stand on risk gaining truth, while believers risk error. He believed and I concur that there are "worse things in the world than being duped". That it is better to risk error and gain truth than risk losing truth. James issued that personal knowledge is often all one can go on. But that is much different than mere emotion. For instance I have often used the example of Einstein, he formulated relativity intuitionally and before all the evidence was in and in face of those rationalists that declared it wrong because of the lack of evidence. The evidence came later in the form of verification, but the truth was discovered prior to.

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_lulu
_Emeritus
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:08 am

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _lulu »

mikwut wrote:That it is better to risk error and gain truth than risk losing truth.


mikwut wrote:For instance I have often used the example of Einstein, he formulated relativity intuitionally and before all the evidence was in and in face of those rationalists that declared it wrong because of the lack of evidence. The evidence came later in the form of verification, but the truth was discovered prior to.


Thanks for that very thorough post. I don't have much time. I need to work some truth tables before I have to tell Stak the dog ate my homework. I suspect he will be able to figure out if I'm stating the truth.

But

1. Should one do a more specific risk benefit analysis when risking error v losing truth since such decisions are never made in the abstract? What error in regard to what specific "truth" are we talking about? Whether there's a worm in my apple?

I ask because I don't personally know anyone who wants to stop with just the God question. Such people probably exist but I think we could agree that they are in the minority. The vast majority of theists will say God exists therefore you should . . . . . Then I think one might be entitled to a risk benefit analysis. Therefore what exactly? Do I get some additional evidence for the "therefore" part?

If I were to agree with you that God exists could we all just go home? My guess is that we couldn't.

However, if we agreed that God existed and that no more need be said, would it matter that God existed?

2. What's your definition of weak atheists?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Lulu,

1. Should one do a more specific risk benefit analysis when risking error v losing truth since such decisions are never made in the abstract? What error in regard to what specific "truth" are we talking about? Whether there's a worm in my apple?


Well, James gave several examples. God was indeed one and he elaborated in the Varieties regarding God and religion further and in more depth than he did in The Will to Believe. He spoke of the God question as similar to a marriage decision and a relationship. He gave other examples too though. For example, if you were leading a morally appropriate revolution, say the civil rights movement where persuading others toward your moral good is necessary for you to be successful - well there is no scientific analysis you can properly do of it if your going to be successful or not. But, you must believe yourself, in your guts if you will, believing you will be successful is necessary to be successful. Athletes are another example, they are better served if they practice believing and imagining winning the race or the game etc... Like the Einstein example I gave scientific insights often come through flashes of what one might call inspiration or revelation and proceed that as the only evidence to them. Michael Polanyi adds to these examples many more like connoisseurship for example. Our personal knowledge and tacit knowledge run much deeper than we want to admit.

I ask because I don't personally know anyone who wants to stop with just the God question. Such people probably exist but I think we could agree that they are in the minority. The vast majority of theists will say God exists therefore you should . . . . . Then I think one might be entitled to a risk benefit analysis. Therefore what exactly? Do I get some additional evidence for the "therefore" part?

If I were to agree with you that God exists could we all just go home? My guess is that we couldn't.


Right. Opening oneself up to the God question and living and practicing in relationship with deity is what brings out the 'therefore'. It takes work; and James accepted that. Today and in James' day talk of God is often facile and a common idea exists that everyone knew or knows the therefore your inquiring about - but we really have a crude basic intuition or basic belief THAT god exists. I think you hear this most commonly today from those that say, "There has to be something more...", or "This can't be all there is to it.." The basic intuition THAT god exists can expand through work in myriad ways - the spiritual disciplines for example.

However, if we agreed that God existed and that no more need be said, would it matter that God existed?


Yes, then it's time to get to work.

2. What's your definition of weak atheists?


I don't mean it pejoratively. It is descriptive of non-believers that in James' time were agnostics. Today those unbelievers that state they are without belief in God or have not evidence to believe in God would be examples of weak atheists. A Strong atheist would assert God in fact does not exist.

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_lulu
_Emeritus
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:08 am

Re: Theists: should belief scale with the evidence?

Post by _lulu »

mikwut wrote:
If I were to agree with you that God exists could we all just go home? My guess is that we couldn't.
Right. Opening oneself up to the God question and living and practicing in relationship with deity is what brings out the 'therefore'.


Whoa there cowboy. If I were to agree for the sake of argument that there is a God, what evidence and argument can you place on the table that such an entity is capable of being in a relationship with me?

Thanks for answering my weak atheist question.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
Post Reply