Is homosexuality a choice?

[_Daniel2]

Daniel2,

I'm sorry you went through that. Reparative therapy is a solution proposed by people like Droopy because they don't want to confront their own primitive views about homosexuals and it is easier to make someone else change (or blame them) than recognize (and change) their own distorted views of the world. Instead of acting Christ-like and accepting people as they are, they insist that others conform to their view of the world. It sadly is the state of conservative Mormonism which is a predominant view in Utah (and in the Mormon leadership ala BKP). It saddens many of us and one day these people will be held accountable for their horrible actions by the Lord.

Thanks for the kind words, Tobin. I know many Latter-day Saints who don't share Droopy's approach. The worlds is changing, including Mormonism. Case in point: BYU's "It's Get Better" video, which was a life-altering moment, for me, along with my attendance at BYU's weekly "Understanding Same Gender Attraction" group meeting, last week, where I met almost all of the courageous young men and women from the video. As young people like them replace the rapidly aging mentality of Droopy's generation, the world will continue to become a better place for men who love men, and women who love women, and our families, friends, former spouses, and especially, our children.

Daniel2

[_Doctor Scratch]

suffice it to say that the original study shows that meaningful orientation change is possible for those motivated to achieve those therapeutic goals.

Which means what, exactly? That they were guilt-tripped into "changing"? I'm guessing that you still haven't bothered to peruse the APA article that EA provided?

I guess a person who says psychology isn't a science wouldn't be expected to understand how selection bias affects the claim you are attempting to make.

Counseling psychology and its many theories of personality development and the nature of human psychological dynamics are patently not science. That is not to say they do not use some techniques and research methodologies borrowed from science, and cannot be logically judicious and intellectually rigorous within their own sphere, but this family of disciplines is not a branch of the natural sciences. Nor is sociology, despite its lofty positivist pretensions.

They're both social sciences, along with an array of other fields. They are not any less "rigorous" than chemistry, physics, or biology, though--they are simply studying different things and asking different questions.

But that's kind of beside the point. The real point is that you don't get to pick and choose when and where the discipline counts as being legitimate.

I've already explained the risks in this thread.

And these theoretical risks are known empirically to exist precisely how?[/quote[

Probably the easiest way to gauge the risk is to look at patient outcomes. If you put patients through this process of SOCE and it makes them feel conflicted, guilty, suicidal, etc., then the treatment has to be viewed as dangerous.

But what you're getting at here probably has to do with social science methodology. I.e., you are going to complain that the risks are "theoretical" because the various kinds of pain are described by the patients, or something like that--that it's "all subjective." Well, the reports of "change" provided by your very small sample set are "subjective," too. And the raw numbers, in any case, are heavily stacked against you.

[_MCB]

Scratchie, it is all part of the Mormon cultural dynamic of invalidating the experience of others.

It is the same mentality of:

You know, the Jews in the concentration camps, their suffering was just in their own heads. They just needed to rise above the situation.

[_KevinSim]

Gay couples should be allowed to marry in the United States. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.

Because the concept "marriage" is not compatible with the concept "homosexual."

Droopy, why should I believe that?

[_KevinSim]

Interesting. You are definitely ahead of the curve of where I believe the American public is. I think you'd find a majority of Americans are for gay marriage.

Has anyone taken a nation-wide poll? If not, maybe some organization should take a nation-wide poll, and see where the majority of Americans really stand.

[_KevinSim]

What is the Church's advice for people born with the sexual organs of both genders?

Interesting question. I'd like to hear the answer.

[_Tobin]

Interesting. You are definitely ahead of the curve of where I believe the American public is. I think you'd find a majority of Americans are for gay marriage.

Has anyone taken a nation-wide poll? If not, maybe some organization should take a nation-wide poll, and see where the majority of Americans really stand.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/21/us-gay-marriage-poll-idUSTRE74K0B520110521

[_KevinSim]

I'm sorry you went through that. Reparative therapy is a solution proposed by people like Droopy because they don't want to confront their own primitive views about homosexuals and it is easier to make someone else change (or blame them) than recognize (and change) their own distorted views of the world. Instead of acting Christ-like and accepting people as they are, they insist that others conform to their view of the world. It sadly is the state of conservative Mormonism which is a predominant view in Utah (and in the Mormon leadership ala BKP). It saddens many of us and one day these people will be held accountable for their horrible actions by the Lord.

Tobin, who is the Lord that you're referring to?

[_Kevin Graham]

So... let me get this straight (ha)...

The evidence you provide for your claim that "the efficacy of reparative therpy is well established" is three links pointing to a single study funded by Christian change counselors of 98 individuals over a 7 year period, of which less than a third reported some sort of 'change'...???

THAT'S what you'd consider "well established" efficacy....?

Droopy was never mistaken for the sharpest tool in the shed.

[_KevinSim]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/21/us-gay-marriage-poll-idUSTRE74K0B520110521

Very interesting. This poll definitely supports the assertion you made.