Joseph's Swamp

[_MCB]

I just read many Mormon accounts of the early days in Nauvoo. Those who had money and could buy or rent land chose to live in places like Lima, Macedonia, Ramus, Golden's Point, Montrose, and LaHarpe. All except Montrose were upland. Some children were taken in by families on the upland. All people who lived on the upland were relatively healthy.

One account said that the Warsaw bottoms were also unhealthy.

They were not dummies. It didn't take t-tests to see that living on the bottoms was unhealthy.

F'God's sake, this is utter stupidity. They needed to get out of there!!!

[_Yahoo Bot]

F'God's sake, this is utter stupidity. They needed to get out of there!!!

So you say. But alluvial farmland is much more productive than the prairie, and obviously marine warehouses don't do well upland. The bend in the river at that particular place was well suited for steamship docking. So, people went where the living could be made.

If riverside life was so deadly as you all say, people in the 19th century wouldn't have spent fortunes to drain the swamps and build docks and warehouses.

[Guest]

You live on the bluff, and work on the bottoms. This protects the little ones from disease, and your home from floods. Duh!!

Even the "sons of Cain" in Africa knew this. http://books.google.com/books?id=HzFcAA ... CFwQ6AEwCA I think it is this book that says that in Africa they stayed away from the river valleys, because they were unhealthy. This comes from Abolitionist lit.

Maybe it is this one. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/15399

My family has lived there for 175 years-- continuously.

[_Equality]

F'God's sake, this is utter stupidity. They needed to get out of there!!!

So you say. But alluvial farmland is much more productive than the prairie, and obviously marine warehouses don't do well upland. The bend in the river at that particular place was well suited for steamship docking. So, people went where the living could be made.

If riverside life was so deadly as you all say, people in the 19th century wouldn't have spent fortunes to drain the swamps and build docks and warehouses.

You keep sidestepping the issue. The people in the specific case cited by beastie in the OP did not go "where the living could be made." Joseph Smith got hoodwinked into buying a death pit. When he discovered his error, he then used his prophetic "mantle" to convince gullible immigrants to buy the land from him, claiming it was the healthiest land in town. The amount of money 19th-century folks spent draining swamps to build docks and warehouses is completely irrelevant.

Your posts here remind me of an old Rush song called Superconductor:

packaged like a rebel or a hero
target mass appeal
to make an audience feel
he really means it

package the illusion of persona
careful to conceal
the fact that she's only too real
she's got to screen it

hit you in a soft place
a melody so sweet
a strong and simple beat
that you can dance to

Watch his every move
SUPERCONDUCTOR
Orchestrate illusions
SUPERCONDUCTOR
Watch his every move
SUPERCONDUCTOR
Hoping you'll believe
Designing to deceive
That's entertainment

he can put a target on the market
bask in your applause
reality withdraws
now he believes it

the role becomes the actor
she's addicted to applause
the stage a world because
she never leaves it

hit you in a soft place
with sentimental ease
they know the fantasies
that you romance to

Watch her every move
SUPERCONDUCTOR
She can manipulate reactions
SUPERCONDUCTOR
Watch her every move
SUPERCONDUCTOR
Pin the donkeys on her tail
Fantasy for sale
That's entertainment...

[_why me]

The other problem here is that some people keep using the word con. It wasn't a con. Joseph wasn't conning people out of their money to get rich and he wasn't a murderer of innocent people which would be the case if people were dying after buying and settling the land.

And that is the problem that I see with some posts. For many here, whatever Joseph did was a con as if the people he conned were stupid idiots who didn't have a brain in their heads. We need to give people some credit. But the Smith haters on this thread are beyond help and have lost all historical objectivity.

[_why me]

You keep sidestepping the issue. The people in the specific case cited by beastie in the OP did not go "where the living could be made." Joseph Smith got hoodwinked into buying a death pit. When he discovered his error, he then used his prophetic "mantle" to convince gullible immigrants to buy the land from him, claiming it was the healthiest land in town. The amount of money 19th-century folks spent draining swamps to build docks and warehouses is completely irrelevant.

My case in point above. Loaded words rule the day on this thread.

[_why me]

To ascribe these motivations to Joseph Smith would really require him to know the causes of malaria. He didn't. He would have had no way of knowing.

Forget it Bot. Joseph was a lying piece of crap who constantly conned people for various of reasons. He was a sadist murderer who willingly watch people die so he can make a buck. He was also a sex fiend who wanted to have sex with many women because he was a horny rabbit. And he was a narcissist who only thought of himself.

However he was a genius who wrote the Book of Mormon without a manuscript who could put his head in a head for days on end to write the Book of Mormon from memory. He was also a devious creative genius who when he was young thought of a way to con people into joining his religion through the Book of Mormon and by his own wits by conning 11 other people to testify of his con's truth throughout their lives. In fact, he spent his youth consumed with this idea as he dreamt up the story of angels and the appearance of heavenly personages. He then went on to attempt to control vast amount of areas of for his own kingdom on earth with gullible stupid followers in tow.

However the murderous mobs were aware of this and attempted to kill off the followers of the son of satan.

What we have Bot is the son of satan walking the face of the earth with the number 666 on his forehead. You really need to get with the picture.

Such is the caricature of the Smith haters on this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZNfPPKK ... re=related

And yet, the gullible idiots could still write and sing this song to show respect for the lying, conning, murderering, horny son of satan.

[_Equality]

The other problem here is that some people keep using the word con. It wasn't a con. Joseph wasn't conning people out of their money to get rich and he wasn't a murderer of innocent people which would be the case if people were dying after buying and settling the land.

And that is the problem that I see with some posts. For many here, whatever Joseph did was a con as if the people he conned were stupid idiots who didn't have a brain in their heads.

Did you even read the original post? That's exactly what it shows.

[_beastie]

Since some people apparently haven't even read the OP, I'm quoting the most relevant portion, the letter written by Joseph Smith:

“NAUVOO, August 25, 1841.

To Horace R. Hotchkiss, Esq., New Haven, Connecticut:

DEAR SIR:--Yours of the 24th ultimo came to hand this day, the contents of which I duly appreciate. I presume you are well aware of the difficulties that occurred before, and at the execution of the writings in regard to the land transaction between us, touching the annual payment of interest: if you have forgotten, I will here remind you, you verbally agreed on our refusal and hesitancy to execute the notes for the payment of the land, that you would not exact the payment of the interest that would accrue on them under five years, and that you would not coerce the payment even then; to all this you pledged your honor; and upon an after arrangement you verbally agreed to take land in some one of the Atlantic States, that would yield six per cent interest (to you) both for the principal and interest, and in view of that matter, I delegated my brother Hyrum and Dr. Isaac Galland to go east and negotiate for lands with our friends, and pay you off for the whole purchase that we made of you; but upon an interview with you, they learned that you were unwilling to enter into an arrangement according to the powers that I had delegated to them; that you would not receive any of the principal at all, but the interest alone, which we never considered ourselves in honor or in justice bound to pay under the expiration of five years. I presume you are no stranger to the part of the city plat we bought of you being a deathly sickly hole, and that we have not been able in consequence to realize any valuable consideration from it, although we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable in consequence of the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come from far distant parts (and that with a view to enable us to meet our engagements), and now to be goaded by you, for a breach of good faith, and neglect and dishonorable conduct, seems to me to be almost beyond endurance.

You are aware that we came from Missouri destitute of everything but physical force, had nothing but our energies and perseverance to rely upon to meet the payment of the extortionate sum that you exacted for the land we had of you. Have you no feelings of commiseration? Or is it your design to crush us with a ponderous load before we are able to walk? Or can you better dispose of the property than we are doing for your interest? If so, to the alternative.

I therefore propose, in order to avoid the perplexity and annoyance that has hitherto attended the transaction, that you come and take the premises, and make the best you can of it, or stand off and give us an opportunity that we may manage the concern, and enable ourselves by the management thereof to meet our engagements, as was originally contemplated.

We have taken a city plat at Warsaw (at the head of navigation for vessels of heavy tonnage) on the most advantageous terms: the proprietors waiting upon us for the payment of the plat, until we can realize the money from the sales, leaving to ourselves a large and liberal net profit. We have been making every exertion, and used all the means at our command to lay a foundation that will now begin to enable us to meet our pecuniary engagements, and no doubt in our minds to the entire satisfaction of all those concerned, if they will but exercise a small degree of patience, and stay a resort to coercive measures which would kill us in the germ, even before we can (by reason of the season) begin to bud and blossom in order to bring forth a plentiful yield of fruit.

I am, with considerations of high respect, Your obedient servant, Joseph Smith.”

It is a testament to the human ability to engage in self-deception that anyone can read the underlined words of Joseph Smith and insist he was innocent in this tragedy.

I've often wondered that, if a letter from Joseph Smith were found and verified to be legit, in which he admitted that he made up the stories of the First Vision and Moroni, if True Believers would stop believing.

I don't think they would. I think they'd find a way to engage in extreme mental gymnastics to avoid the reality of his words, just as they are doing here.

[_Chap]

I presume you are no stranger to the part of the city plat we bought of you being a deathly sickly hole, and that we have not been able in consequence to realize any valuable consideration from it, although we have been keeping up appearances, and holding out inducements to encourage immigration, that we scarcely think justifiable in consequence of the mortality that almost invariably awaits those who come from far distant parts (and that with a view to enable us to meet our engagements), and now to be goaded by you, for a breach of good faith, and neglect and dishonorable conduct, seems to me to be almost beyond endurance.

Which, being summarized, meaneth:

"We know this is a deathly sick hole, and that the people from distant parts whom we induce to buy plots there will almost invariably die. But we sell to them all the same, in order to meet our business engagements."

Those are his own words, folks. No anti-mormon lies there, eh?