"All is Vanity and Vexation of Spirit."

[_RayAgostini]

"Everything under the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit—He who increases in knowledge increases in sorrow."

So what is it that drives you all? You who have taken an even greater interest in Mormonism since you left the Church. Is it a need to be justified? A need to understand your past, your culture, your upbringing? A need to understand how you could have fallen for a "fraud"?

Perhaps you just want the "radical elements" in Mormonism extinguished?

Then maybe this essay will address that need?

Beyond atheism: Learning from Alain de Botton

You don't have to believe in Santa Claus to believe in Christmas. You don't have to believe in lighter-than-air reindeer to believe in exchanging gifts with friends and family. You don't have to believe in the virgin birth to gather together and share a feast with those you love.

Why are you still not at peace? It's clear from most threads here that you are not? What so bothers you, and why are you so relentless in your pursuit of proving Mormonism "wrong". What is this obsession all about? Some kind of "spiritual witness" you had long ago, but which you feel doesn't match your current "reason and logic"?

I don't know what others think, but I would think that looking in here at MDB, from an outsider's point of view, I'd see a rather obsessed bunch. Do blood transfusions equally bother you? Does the Eucharist offend you? Do people outside the Church all get on well with no problems? No family division? No one has ever suffered enormous pain and rejection outside of Mormonism?

Or is it that, post-Mormonism, you still haven't found what you're looking for? And you'd rather condemn your past, than moving positively forward to a better and more meaningful life (is that even possible?)? Others need to "be warned", you say? Please don't be so arrogant. Thousands of Mormons, just as "educated" as you are, still believe, and find happiness in Mormonism. "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." The universe is a big place, and therein lies possibilities almost unimagined. So what brings your "conclusions" to such a degree of certainty? How do you positively know that Mormonism is "not true"? "Logic"? "Historical evidence"? You think "Mormonism" is limited to this sphere of existence alone, and can be weighed and judged by earth's "empirical values" alone?

I think not.

In short, why are you here, and why are you so obsessed with Mormonism? What do you hope to accomplish?

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, or antagonistic. I like many here on this board, but I feel that I cannot condone the continuing assaults upon Mormonism. I see little point in it. It hasn't persuaded me to change my view, which is to keep an open mind, even to things we might feel are "impossible".

I probably won't read replies to this thread for a while, maybe a long while, because I can mostly anticipate them, and I know they won't be edifying. Nothing here, really, has ever "edified" me. Nothing at all.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself....

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass....

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its shams, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy. (Desiderata)

May you find peace, and forgiveness.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

I wish I could be at equal peace with those who troll to feel superior about themselves.

[_Mooseman]

Ray, I am just a humble observer here at times. Now that he seems to have vanished it maybe that Mormons keep their arrogance and never confront the hypocrisy Nightlion proved over and over again. He came off like a crippled mind but was ignored not for that but because there was no answer against his rhetorical taking down of what the Church became. So why no Zion right here and right now? Is pure arrogance a sufficient balm in our LDS Gilead? I saw him cast out of MDD without answer consistently forever. I am personally ashamed. I had nothing to say.

I hope you consider his talk of Zion and not so much about his mountain fantasy.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I find it ironic you'd post:

"Everything under the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit—He who increases in knowledge increases in sorrow."

And then chastise the same group for feeling, apparently, vexatious and sorrowful.

This, the Doctoreth sayeth:

And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

- VRDRC

[_Kishkumen]

I love those quotes, Ray.

I don't consider myself to be one who is against Mormonism, who desires to prove anything about it, or who wants to dissuade anyone from practicing it.

All those people of goodwill who profess the LDS faith I applaud and encourage. All those who use religion, whatever the creed, as a tool of oppression or as a means to prop up their own misguided vanity, I deplore and decry.

And that's that.

[_Tator]

Ray, your OP is full of questions. Have you asked and answered them for yourself?

For example, Ray

In short, why are you here, and why are you so obsessed with Mormonism? What do you hope to accomplish?

Are you at peace?

[_sock puppet]

Hey, Ray,

My interest in Mormonism was greater before I apostatized than has been since. I was raised in Mormonism. It is the faith of my fathers, into five generations into the past. After freeing myself from it, finding out how the 99%+ people of the world live non-Mormon, my past seems so strange, and yes, cultish by comparison. (Cults after all provide fellowship--it's just how tight and smothering that fellowship is that makes it a cult, and Mormonism fits the bill.)

I am fascinated to a degree still, but it is by this contrast that I could not see when I was in the Mormon bubble. Yes, it is trying to figure out what Mormon residue is in my mentality, what scars of Mormonism yet remain. Yes, sociologically, I am trying to figure out how people who have looked behind the curtain can yet 'believe' when the evidence is so damning, how other people do everything they can to keep the curtain in front of the eyes of so many others, and yet other people prefer the curtain remain in place and they don't for themselves see what is behind it. Sociologically and psychologically, it is fascinating.

As insanely as it may seem to you, I am doing a bit of a Holden Caulfield type of thing (and of course, Holden was insane). I am doing my little part to be the catcher in the rye, and keep others from running blindly through the field of rye until it is too late. I am hoping that I can help by making posts that Mormon "investigators" and doubting members might see, so they cannot get caught in the snare or free themselves from it. (Okay, shoot me--I've now mixed a third metaphor into this paragraph.)

Since I don't know--since no one knows--what if anything lies ahead, after death, I do not discount the remote possibility that Mormon Jesus is what I will encounter after I die. So what? I am who I am. If he and daddy are all knowing, they know that good and bad reside inside everyone, including each of the FP/12. By going to Mormon church on Sundays isn't going to mask who people are inside from an all-knowing being passing judgment.

Much more likely is that the next existence, if there is one, will be a circumstance that no one on earth has even imagined. Better have high-top boots on, you don't know what kind of muck you'll have to slog through there.

[_brade]

"Everything under the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit—He who increases in knowledge increases in sorrow."

So what is it that drives you all? You who have taken an even greater interest in Mormonism since you left the Church. Is it a need to be justified? A need to understand your past, your culture, your upbringing? A need to understand how you could have fallen for a "fraud"?

Perhaps you just want the "radical elements" in Mormonism extinguished?

Then maybe this essay will address that need?

Beyond atheism: Learning from Alain de Botton

You don't have to believe in Santa Claus to believe in Christmas. You don't have to believe in lighter-than-air reindeer to believe in exchanging gifts with friends and family. You don't have to believe in the virgin birth to gather together and share a feast with those you love.

Why are you still not at peace? It's clear from most threads here that you are not? What so bothers you, and why are you so relentless in your pursuit of proving Mormonism "wrong". What is this obsession all about? Some kind of "spiritual witness" you had long ago, but which you feel doesn't match your current "reason and logic"?

I don't know what others think, but I would think that looking in here at MDB, from an outsider's point of view, I'd see a rather obsessed bunch. Do blood transfusions equally bother you? Does the Eucharist offend you? Do people outside the Church all get on well with no problems? No family division? No one has ever suffered enormous pain and rejection outside of Mormonism?

Or is it that, post-Mormonism, you still haven't found what you're looking for? And you'd rather condemn your past, than moving positively forward to a better and more meaningful life (is that even possible?)? Others need to "be warned", you say? Please don't be so arrogant. Thousands of Mormons, just as "educated" as you are, still believe, and find happiness in Mormonism. "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." The universe is a big place, and therein lies possibilities almost unimagined. So what brings your "conclusions" to such a degree of certainty? How do you positively know that Mormonism is "not true"? "Logic"? "Historical evidence"? You think "Mormonism" is limited to this sphere of existence alone, and can be weighed and judged by earth's "empirical values" alone?

I think not.

In short, why are you here, and why are you so obsessed with Mormonism? What do you hope to accomplish?

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, or antagonistic. I like many here on this board, but I feel that I cannot condone the continuing assaults upon Mormonism. I see little point in it. It hasn't persuaded me to change my view, which is to keep an open mind, even to things we might feel are "impossible".

I probably won't read replies to this thread for a while, maybe a long while, because I can mostly anticipate them, and I know they won't be edifying. Nothing here, really, has ever "edified" me. Nothing at all.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself....

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass....

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its shams, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy. (Desiderata)

May you find peace, and forgiveness.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I've never been at more peace in my life than now, after having discontinued activity in the church and openly confessed my disbelief and skepticism. I'm still interested in Mormonism because it's interesting and because it's been a large part of my life.

However, against the experience you describe of many here - taking a greater interest in Mormonism - I'm finding that as time goes by I'm less and less inclined to spend time thinking about Mormonism. I'm also spending less and less time here and on other forums. To a large degree, I'm over it and I'm moving on.

[_sock puppet]

"Without faith, it is impossible to please God."

Why does this god not please himself?

Why does this god need us to please him/her/it?

What about acting or believing something in the absence of evidence is pleasing to this god? Why would this god not be more impressed, more pleased to observe us acting rationally, based on evidence?

[_Madison54]

I would love for my family members and close friends to learn the entire truth regarding the church and its history. If they choose to continue believing and attending, I'm in full support of that. It's just difficult to see all the countless hours they spend out of their homes that they could be spending with their children (not that service isn't good too) and also all the "stuff" they agonize over and feel guilty over that really is inconsequential.

I have no ill or hatred towards the Mormon church, but I do feel that it needs to be more honest about much of its past. I am all about finding truth now.

I come on here mainly to read and keep current regarding what is happening with the church as I no longer attend.

I do know much, much more about the church that I belonged to and gave thousands of dollars to now than I ever did as a completely believing and dedicated member. That's a sad statement to make and I wish I'd delved into past doctrines and history much sooner in my life.