Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

[_Bond James Bond]

The church's status as a charitable organization is only a legal definition. There is nothing charitable about tithing donations. Ethically, the LDS church is not a charity. Only legally.

I think it would make a HUGE difference, morally, to give a million dollars to Mother Teresa (or the Red Cross, or Haiti relief, or starving African children) instead of to a rich organization that uses it to build gaudy temples and such.

Romney uses the donation as a tax deduction, which means that all of us taxpayers are subsidizing his donation.

Krose as usual your posts only require a +1 from me.

[_harmony]

So no... the Red Cross, a food bank, or the Mormon church are all equal charities.

According to the government. How about your opinion?

According to my opinion, the Mormon church is a charity, the same as the Catholic church or the little neighborhood church. And they are all in the same business.

But it's not my opinion that matters on this thread. What matters is Romney's opinion, and obviously he thinks the church is a charity.

Your last question isn't about charities... and it can be said for any church, not just the Mormons.

Care to give your opinion about my question?[/quote]

Only God will decide who gets into heaven. His criteria are well known, and have nothing to do with money.

[_Jason Bourne]

Saw this last night and thought it was great.

Even my NOM wife agrees that Romney's giving does not go to "poor people" but to the LDS Church.

A Church in qualifies as a charity. There are many organizations the qualify as charities, or you contribution as a charitable deduction that do not give to the poor. And none of us really know what the donations beyond the 10% tithe were for now do we?

Looks like it is going to be a tough campaign for the LDS Church.

The LDS Church is not running for president.

On the point that Romney simply destroyed jobs and raped companies of their profits and laid people off, blah, blah, blah...

I do not know the details or history of Bain capital. But I do have as private equity firm as client. They play an important role in growing businesses. I think you are foolish if you think otherwise. My client acts as a gather and funnel for investors to pool money and acquire small to mid size businesses that need large infusions of capital to grow. They find good businesses and help them obtain the capital to grow and often flourish beyond what they would have been able to without involving the private equity fund. Do they succeed every time? No. But they do more often than not. And I have watched them invest in many businesses, provide an exit strategy for the owners, grow the business to the next level (which included increasing employment and investing in additional plants and often equipment) which again, would not have happened without the private equity firm getting involved. They also tend to get a pretty good rate of return for the investors which includes among other, some state pension funds.

My guess is Bain was very similar to this client of mine.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't think it's fair to criticize where Romney donates to charity, as long as the charity is a charity. He can put his money wherever wants. It wouldn't make any difference if he donated to Mother Teresa... it's his choice.

And there are other charities besides the poor. It's not Mitt's fault the church doesn't care about the poor; he probably doesn't have any idea where the money goes.

This assumes that the only charity Romney donates too is the LDS Church. You and I do not know that nor does anyone else here know that.

I tithe but I give a lot to fast offerings, the humanitarian fund as well as other organizations that give food to the poor, do cancer research or other medical charities such as those that are oriented towards heart disease, diabetes Alzheimers. My guess is Romney supports many other charities.


And keep in mind, as noted above, a church is a charity. A Church needs to have funds to operate. I do not argue that the LDS Church is not a wealthy organization. But my guess is most of its assets is in money consuming properties-Church buildings and temples. Giving to e Church that one believes in qualifies as charity in my opinion. Does not matter which Church it is either. How much of the cash given when the plate is passed weekly at say a baptist Church goes to feed the poor? My guess is not much. Rather it support the costs of operating the local activities of that Church.

[_harmony]

I don't think it's fair to criticize where Romney donates to charity, as long as the charity is a charity. He can put his money wherever wants. It wouldn't make any difference if he donated to Mother Teresa... it's his choice.

And there are other charities besides the poor. It's not Mitt's fault the church doesn't care about the poor; he probably doesn't have any idea where the money goes.

This assumes that the only charity Romney donates too is the LDS Church. You and I do not know that nor does anyone else here know that.

I tithe but I give a lot to fast offerings, the humanitarian fund as well as other organizations that give food to the poor, do cancer research or other medical charities such as those that are oriented towards heart disease, diabetes Alzheimers. My guess is Romney supports many other charities.


And keep in mind, as noted above, a church is a charity. A Church needs to have funds to operate. I do not argue that the LDS Church is not a wealthy organization. But my guess is most of its assets is in money consuming properties-Church buildings and temples. Giving to e Church that one believes in qualifies as charity in my opinion. Does not matter which Church it is either. How much of the cash given when the plate is passed weekly at say a baptist Church goes to feed the poor? My guess is not much. Rather it support the costs of operating the local activities of that Church.

Well, you said it better than I could.

[_Jason Bourne]

Are all charities equal?

The question makes no sense. Various charities do differing things. If you narrowly define charity as only assisting someone who is poor then no, they are not all equal. I don't define charity this narrow. Nor do the tax laws of our land.

Is the Red Cross or a food pantry no different from the Mormon Church?

Is the Red Cross of a food pantry no different from giving to a university, The Lance Armstrong Foundation, The American Heart Society or to a fund the support my local community center? Clearly yes. They are different. But they are all still charities.

(And is it really "charity" if tithing is a de facto requirement for the highest levels of afterlife glory or paying to get into heaven?)

I think this argument is a red herring. I think if you look at the stats religious persons are bigger givers then non religious persons. Often they are motivated by their religious teachings about giving and blessings for giving. So what? Who really cares. The results are the same.

[_Jason Bourne]

The church's status as a charitable organization is only a legal definition. There is nothing charitable about tithing donations. Ethically, the LDS church is not a charity. Only legally.

I think it would make a HUGE difference, morally, to give a million dollars to Mother Teresa (or the Red Cross, or Haiti relief, or starving African children) instead of to a rich organization that uses it to build gaudy temples and such.

Romney uses the donation as a tax deduction, which means that all of us taxpayers are subsidizing his donation.

Really? So the only thing that is is a Charity is a group the give to the poor? Religion does not qualify as a charity? What silliness.

[Guest]

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[_Jason Bourne]

True, neither Mother Teresa's outfit or the LDS Church really help the poor, but are concerned with saving people's "souls".

This is utter nonsense. I am all for fair criticism of the LDS Church but I will call you on an unfair one. Sure you can argue that is does not do enough. But to say it does not help the poor is ludicrous. Have you heard of fast offering? Have you heard of bishops storehouses or the welfare assistance program of the Church? When I was a bishop I gave out about $50,000 a year is food, medical, housing, utilities and other such assistance. And not all of that went to poor LDS members. I think my ward was higher than average. And that exceeded my take in fast offering funds every year for my ward. When I ran a deficit the Church my stake kicked in. If it ran a deficit the Church headquarters kicked in. My guess is that cash came from tithing.

So cut it in half. Say every LDS ward gives out $25,000 a year in welfare assistance. Multiply that by 26,000 wards and you have a substantial annual amount.

Then there is the disaster aid. Not only does the Church give cash but it gives hundreds of thousands of man hours helping in such disasters. Then the Church has its humanitarian fund. You can argue that it may not be enough based on what it takes in but it is still no small sum.

Then there are things local units do. Our stake sponsored a Habitat for humanity home a couple years back. We raised over $60,000 from members and built a home. The other church we sponsored the home with, a local Presbyterian church was thrilled to work with us and said they had never had such a successful co project. Many stakes do local service projects regularly.

Just like the LDS Church the money given to her cause was unaccounted for and does not appear to have gone to the things that most people giving it thought it would.

And you know this exactly how?

However we call these things "charities" as they gather and misappropriate the funds donated with no accountability and impunity.

I am all for more transparency by the Church in regards to its income. I am skeptical that there is intentional misappropriation of funds.

The oxford dictionary defines charity as follows:

1. an organization set up to provide help and raise money for those in need.

2. the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need.

Well based on that very narrow definition I have proven above that the LDS Church is a charity and does charitable things.

There is no mention of religions or other organizations even if in a legal context they may be defined as "charitable". Romney may believe when he is donating his tithing that he is giving to those in "need", but there isn't any evidence that it is going there and I think it's fair to distinguish between someone giving to the poor which is the way most people understand charity and donating your dues to an estimated multibillion dollar organization religion.

As shown above the LDS Church does substantial activity in assisting the poor. That it may not be enough to you based on what it takes in does not negate the fact that the Church does do charitable activities with income it receives.

Also as noted, you have no idea how much beyond tithing Romney gave to the LDS Church in fast offering funds. We used to have a very wealthy person in our stake. He died a few years ago. Every year our stake gave more out in fast offering than it took in. He would always make up the difference. Usually it was $25k-$50k. Once when I was a bishop and the welfare needs were very high that year I made a plea for ward members to increase their fast offering funds. I had a member ask to see me later in the day and give me a check for $10k. All for welfare. How do you know Romney does not do such things? My guess is he does.

[_Jason Bourne]

True, neither Mother Teresa's outfit or the LDS Church really help the poor, but are concerned with saving people's "souls".

This is utter nonsense. I am all for fair criticism of the LDS Church but I will call you on an unfair one. Sure you can argue that is does not do enough. But to say it does not help the poor is ludicrous. Have you heard of fast offering? Have you heard of bishops storehouses or the welfare assistance program of the Church? When I was a bishop I gave out about $50,000 a year is food, medical, housing, utilities and other such assistance. And not all of that went to poor LDS members. I think my ward was higher than average. And that exceeded my take in fast offering funds every year for my ward. When I ran a deficit the Church my stake kicked in. If it ran a deficit the Church headquarters kicked in. My guess is that cash came from tithing.

So cut it in half. Say every LDS ward gives out $25,000 a year in welfare assistance. Multiply that by 26,000 wards and you have a substantial annual amount.

Then there is the disaster aid. Not only does the Church give cash, food and supplies and it does it very well, but it gives hundreds of thousands of man hours helping in such disasters. Then the Church has its humanitarian fund. You can argue that it may not be enough based on what it takes in but it is still no small sum.

Then there are things local units do. Our stake sponsored a Habitat for humanity home a couple years back. We raised over $60,000 from members and built a home. The other church we sponsored the home with, a local Presbyterian church was thrilled to work with us and said they had never had such a successful co project. Many stakes do local service projects regularly.

Just like the LDS Church the money given to her cause was unaccounted for and does not appear to have gone to the things that most people giving it thought it would.

And you know this exactly how?

However we call these things "charities" as they gather and misappropriate the funds donated with no accountability and impunity.

I am all for more transparency by the Church in regards to its income. I am skeptical that there is intentional misappropriation of funds.

The oxford dictionary defines charity as follows:

1. an organization set up to provide help and raise money for those in need.

2. the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need.

Well based on that very narrow definition I have proven above that the LDS Church is a charity and does charitable things.

There is no mention of religions or other organizations even if in a legal context they may be defined as "charitable". Romney may believe when he is donating his tithing that he is giving to those in "need", but there isn't any evidence that it is going there and I think it's fair to distinguish between someone giving to the poor which is the way most people understand charity and donating your dues to an estimated multibillion dollar organization religion.

As shown above the LDS Church does substantial activity in assisting the poor. That it may not be enough to you based on what it takes in does not negate the fact that the Church does do charitable activities with income it receives.

Also as noted, you have no idea how much beyond tithing Romney gave to the LDS Church in fast offering funds. We used to have a very wealthy person in our stake. He died a few years ago. Every year our stake gave more out in fast offering than it took in. He would always make up the difference. Usually it was $25k-$50k. Once when I was a bishop and the welfare needs were very high that year I made a plea for ward members to increase their fast offering funds. I had a member ask to see me later in the day and give me a check for $10k. All for welfare. How do you know Romney does not do such things? My guess is he does.