Hat trick?

[_krose]

I think it was either set up as a show for people who came by to witness the process, or (more likely, in my opinion) it was a device to help him concentrate and get into a "zone" to help his creative juices flow. Something like a hypnotic trance.

Obviously they had to have a KJV Bible handy to reproduce the sections from Isaiah, so he could not have used the hat throughout.

[_why me]

And then of course we have 11 people who saw the plates and 8 of the 11 who actually felt the plates. That creates a little problem for a ruse. Oliver would have given it all up in the letter to his brother with the dirty little affair angle. But he didn't. And then of course, he came back to the fold and bore his testimony and also on his deathbed to his wife and child and friends.

Amazing to be sure.

[Guest]

And then of course we have 11 people who saw the plates and 8 of the 11 who actually felt the plates. That creates a little problem for a ruse. Oliver would have given it all up in the letter to his brother with the dirty little affair angle. But he didn't. And then of course, he came back to the fold and bore his testimony and also on his deathbed to his wife and child and friends.

Amazing to be sure.

Are you always so believing of people who earnestly claim to have seen things? If so, I wonder how you reconcile your LDS beliefs with your belief in alien abductions and appearances of the goddess Lakshmi?

[_beefcalf]

And then of course we have 11 people who saw the plates and 8 of the 11 who actually felt the plates. That creates a little problem for a ruse. Oliver would have given it all up in the letter to his brother with the dirty little affair angle. But he didn't. And then of course, he came back to the fold and bore his testimony and also on his deathbed to his wife and child and friends.

Amazing to be sure.

Eleven of Joseph Smith's closest relatives and some of his friends, most from one family... And none of them produced their own statement, but signed a statement which was wholly written by Smith himself. Smith even had to persuade some of the reluctant witnesses to sign. Why would they be reluctant?

Is there any reason to believe that Smith would ever use a signed statement by witnesses to convince people of a lie?

Yes.

Some years later, Joseph Smith arranged for a number of people to sign affidavits stating that the Latter-Day Saints considered marriage to be between one man and one woman. A number of those people who signed this affidavit, which Smith then published in his church-controlled newspaper, were polygamists themselves, who had direct knowledge that the affidavit they were signing was false.

The fact that we can verify, unambiguously, that Smith was willing to produce false affidavits to support his cause means that it is reasonable and proper for us to consider any and all affidavits produced by him, including his statements of the three and eight witnesses, to be untrustworthy.

[_beefcalf]

For those interested in the details please consider a post I made on this topic some time ago on another forum:

This concerns two affidavits signed by numerous witnesses in Nauvoo and printed in the October 1st 1842 Times and Seasons newspaper. At that date, the Editor in Chief of the Times and Seasons was Joseph Smith, Jr.

The first of these two affidavits, referencing D&C 101 ('CI' in Roman numerals) (1835 edition), reads as follows:

"All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again...We have given the above rule of marriage as the only one practiced in this church, to show that Dr. J. C. Bennett's 'secret wife system' is a matter of his own manufacture; and further to disabuse the public ear, and shew that the said Bennett and his misanthropic friend Origen Bachelor, are perpetrating a foul and infamous slander upon an innocent people, and need but be known to be hated and despise. In support of this position, we present the following certificates:-We the undersigned members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and residents of the city of Nauvoo, persons of families do hereby certify and declare that we know of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants (section CI, 1835 edition), and we give this certificate to show that Dr. J. C. Bennett's "secret wife system" is a creature of his own make as we know of no such society in this place nor never did."

This affidavit was signed by the following witnesses:

S. Bennett
N. K. Whitney
George Miller
Albert Pettey
Alpheus Cutler
Elias Higbee
Reynolds Cahoon
John Taylor
Wilson Law
E. Robinson
W. Woodruff
Aaron Johnson

The second affidavit, also referencing D&C 101 (1835 edition), reads as follows:

"We the undersigned members of the ladies' relief society, and married females do certify and declare that we know of no system of marriage being practiced in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints save the one contained in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and we give this certificate to the public to show that J. C. Bennett's "secret wife system" is a disclosure of his own make."

This second affidavit was signed by the following witnesses:

Emma Smith, President
Elizabeth Ann Whitney, Counsellor
Sarah M. Cleveland, Counsellor
Eliza R. Snow, Secretary
Mary C. Miller
Catharine Pettey
Lois Cutler
Sarah Higbee
Thirza Cahoon
Phebe Woodruff
Ann Hunter
Leonora Taylor
Jane Law
Sarah Hillman
Sophia R. Marks
Rosannah Marks
Polly Z. Johnson
Angeline Robinson;
Abigail Works

At the time these affidavits were printed, Eliza R. Snow (4th signatory of the 2nd affidavit) had been married as a plural wife to Joseph Smith since June, earlier that year. Elizabeth Ann Whitney (2nd signatory of the 2nd affidavit) was the mother of 17-year-old Sarah Ann Whitney who had been married to Joseph Smith in July of 1842 and was present at that ceremony. The man who performed that plural marriage ceremony was her father, Bishop Newel K. Whitney (2nd signatory of the 1st affidavit).

ONLINE REFERENCES:
D&C Section 101, 1835 Edition (NOTE that 101 is printed in Roman numerals as 'CI')
Times and Seasons Archive, October 1st Edition

[_Infymus]

And then of course we have 11 people who saw the plates and 8 of the 11 who actually felt the plates. That creates a little problem for a ruse. Oliver would have given it all up in the letter to his brother with the dirty little affair angle. But he didn't. And then of course, he came back to the fold and bore his testimony and also on his deathbed to his wife and child and friends.

Amazing to be sure.

Eleven of Joseph Smith's closest relatives and some of his friends, most from one family... And none of them produced their own statement, but signed a statement which was wholly written by Smith himself. Smith even had to persuade some of the reluctant witnesses to sign.

This and exactly this.

[_sock puppet]

And why did the dumb things have to be made out of gold? Brass worked just fine for the Kinderhook Plates...oh wait, those were phony, right?

Cuz god hadn't invented platinum by then.

[_Corpsegrinder]

And why did the dumb things have to be made out of gold? Brass worked just fine for the Kinderhook Plates...oh wait, those were phony, right?

Cuz god hadn't invented platinum by then.

I predict the next set of ancient scriptures to be dug up will be made of an alloy of unobtainium and anti-matter.

[_Dantana]

And why did the dumb things have to be made out of gold? Brass worked just fine for the Kinderhook Plates...oh wait, those were phony, right?

Cuz god hadn't invented platinum by then.

I wonder if maybe, since God's streets are paved with gold, he didn't realize it's a bit of a commodity down here....comes in pretty handy, and that every Gadianton in the hood would be chasing down his players trying to get some. Could'a just went with parchment, some good freezer bags, a well designed drumlin vault and saved Moroni some cojones skin.