The disaffected Mormon problem

[_Buffalo]

Trust me, it comes down to personal preference. As someone with some background in Pentecostalism, I often feel like LDS prayers are dispassionate and rigid.

I'm sure much of it has to do with how you were raised plus personality. Personally I get embarrassed very easily. I don't like dancing in public. I don't show emotion in public either, so emotive worship just doesn't work for me.

It looks like the people doing it really enjoy it though. More power to them.

I was raised LDS, and everything about LDS church services feels dispassionate and rigid to me too, despite my introversion and years of experience with it.

[_Natsunekko]

If this were true, then I would expect to see higher levels of ex-members of other religions defecting to atheism/agnosticism/non-religion..

If you’re referring to an actual statistical study, I would love to read it.

Likewise, Mormonism does not teach traditional Christianity and then pile Mormonism on top of it. It just doesn’t. All of the things which Mormonism ostensibly has in common with traditional Christianity—belief in Jesus, belief in the Bible, belief in salvation and heaven, etc.—are carefully filtered through uniquely Mormon revelation. Our mode of worship and our lifestyle is (in most denominations) significantly different from that that has been experienced by Mormons. So when belief in uniquely Mormon revelation fails, it all goes.

Interesting. Are you saying disaffected Mormons are incapable of accepting Biblical Christianity because of their prior socialization and conditioning? As a disaffected Mormon, I would have to disagree.

We feel no closeness to Judaism—neither theological nor cultural—so if faith in the claims of Christianity are lost, Judaism is never even a consideration.

My father left Mormonism for a sect of Judaism...not that it has anything to do with the point you're trying to make.

I can only speak for myself, but as a Mormon who no longer believes in neither the divinity of Mormonism nor of Christianity, I can say it has little to do with whether the Mormon version of Jesus is compatible with the Biblical version. It has more to do with the fact that, in my view, the story of the Resurrection is no more likely to be true than the story of the First Vision. If I still believed in the Biblical Resurrection, then it wouldn't be a problem for me to join a Catholic or a Protestant denomination. It would be kind of like going to live in a foreign country, strange at first but eventually I would get used to it.

LDS Church - Joseph Smith = Atheism

Sorry, but that’s just not true. Furthermore, that’s the kind of remark that believing Mormons will find extremely offensive. What kind of reaction are you hoping to get by saying that?

[_Blixa]

LDS Church - Joseph Smith = Atheism

Sorry, but that’s just not true. Furthermore, that’s the kind of remark that believing Mormons will find extremely offensive. What kind of reaction are you hoping to get by saying that?

What's your deal Natsunekko? Your OP asked what people here thought and then you get snarky about the replies.

Perhaps you missed what Aristotle Smith is arguing. I think this point of his is well taken, especially the second clause:

Apart from Joseph Smith, believing in Jesus really means zilch to most, if not all, LDS members. Whereas in other churches, believing in Jesus still buys you some goodwill from family members and friends still in the tradition you have left.

[_Aristotle Smith]

LDS Church - Joseph Smith = Atheism

Sorry, but that’s just not true. Furthermore, that’s the kind of remark that believing Mormons will find extremely offensive. What kind of reaction are you hoping to get by saying that?

I meant something very specific by this.

The ex-Mo exit story has a very limited number of permutations. Most follow a standard script. People get curious about church history for whatever reason, then they read all about Book of Abraham, Nauvoo polygamy/polyandry, blacks and the priesthood, Masonry and the temple, Book of Mormon anachronisms, etc. At some point they "see the light" and leave the church. A large percentage, probably the majority, become atheists/agnostics/secularists.

The thing you need to take note of is what is not in the standard script. No mention of existence of God, faith in Jesus, the problem of evil, critical issues surrounding the Bible, etc. All of these issues speak directly to theism and to the overwhelmingly predominant Western forms of theism. Yet, most ex-Mos throw theism out without even thinking about these things for any length of time whatsoever. So the conclusion is simply that for most Brighamite Mormons, once you take away the LDS distinctives there is no belief in God left. That's what I mean by LDS Church - Joseph Smtih = Atheism. Empirically, I don't even think there is much of an argument here.

I also reject the standard defense you posted above that once you realize the LDS church is mythology that you quickly realize that all other religious beliefs are mythology. Note, I changed your words to say what you probably meant to say. My guess is that you probably think you are mythology free at this point, ignoring any number of metanarratives (modern mythologies) you do believe in. In any case, the average ex-LDS tends to show little interest and spends little time investigating belief outside of the LDS context. Many times they trot out the "it's all mythology" line or they think that their encounter with bad LDS history and doctrine gives them super powers in detecting BS in all its myriad religious forms. But the bottom line is the same, little interest and little time spent on anything non-Mormon but still religious. In other words, for most people, LDS Church - Joseph Smith = Atheism.

[_dblagent007]

Aristotle, what do you believe is the most persuasive reason (or reasons) to believe there is a God? I'm sincerely curious because I'm having a hard time identifying any.

[_Themis]

I also reject the standard defense you posted above that once you realize the LDS church is mythology that you quickly realize that all other religious beliefs are mythology.

As I noted before, the problem here is that the more skeptically minded LDS are the ones to figure out the church is not true. They will carry that skepticism on when viewing other religions, and lets face it, they don't fair much better then LDS truth claims and why I should believe them accurate.

[_madeleine]

Over on the LDS Talk blog, they discuss how only 11% of former Mormons identify themselves as Christians after leaving Mormonism. They offer five reasons on why they think this is so:

(1) The Church argues effectively that the Bible supports distinctively Mormon doctrines.
(2) Ostracism of LDS from traditional Christianity discourages disaffected Mormons from becoming traditional Christians.
(3) The Trinity and the doctrine of hell and salvation are not attractive or compelling to disaffected Mormons (or any non-traditional Christian).
(4)Perceived differences in Church Culture prevent Mormons from wanting to attend other churchs.
(5) Mormon Culture keeps the disaffected from other Christian churches.

I think there’s a certain amount of truth here, but none of these address the core issue. In my opinion, the core issue is this: going from Mormonism to Christianity is simply going from one type of mythology to another type of mythology. In the end it’s all just mythology. I’d like to know what other people in this forum think.

I'd say this list is very Mormon centric. I was raised in the Mormon church, dad was bishop, mom the relief society pres. I left many years ago (decades)and was atheist/agnostic for most of my life.

Looking back from where I am now, you can say I remained aloof to religion in general because I continued to think like a Mormon.

1) literal interpretation of Bible stories such as Jonah or the flood (who'd believe that?)
2) view of scripture as a textbook
3) view of God as a being of human attributes, failures and intentions (ie unjust and unmerciful)
4) view of all religions as corrupt (just like Joseph Smith taught)

Former Mormons continue to carry Mormon beliefs and approach to religion, which, is an inoculation of sorts against Christian belief. Add to that the sense of betrayal and being made a fool... the repulsion towards belief is pretty much set.

[_MCB]

Yep, maddy, that is why a rational and pragmatic approach, while accepting the other things on faith, to renewing spirituality for ex-Mormons is the best.

Thank you.

[_Mary]

Mormonism didn't lead me to atheism. Agnosticism maybe some of the time. When I started to really look at church history, I also started to look at early christian history. I'm still left with a respect for Jesus of Nazareth in as much as we can really know him, and certainly a respect for how he is portrayed in most of the gospel narratives, imperfect as they are. He is quoted as saying a lot of good stuff, albeit the material can mostly be found elsewhere. I also think that Mary Magdalene really did have a 'visionary' experience of the resurrected Jesus. I still think life goes on after death, in some form or another. I like the way Spong is trying to steer a way through christian thought.

I can't see myself ever becoming atheist because that in itself implies a 100% surety and I'm not willing to go that far.

[_Corpsegrinder]

No mention of existence of God, faith in Jesus, the problem of evil, critical issues surrounding the Bible, etc. All of these issues speak directly to theism and to the overwhelmingly predominant Western forms of theism. Yet, most ex-Mos throw theism out without even thinking about these things for any length of time whatsoever. So the conclusion is simply that for most Brighamite Mormons, once you take away the LDS distinctives there is no belief in God left. That's what I mean by LDS Church - Joseph Smtih = Atheism. Empirically, I don't even think there is much of an argument here.

I also reject the standard defense you posted above that once you realize the LDS church is mythology that you quickly realize that all other religious beliefs are mythology. Note, I changed your words to say what you probably meant to say. My guess is that you probably think you are mythology free at this point, ignoring any number of metanarratives (modern mythologies) you do believe in. In any case, the average ex-LDS tends to show little interest and spends little time investigating belief outside of the LDS context. Many times they trot out the "it's all mythology" line or they think that their encounter with bad LDS history and doctrine gives them super powers in detecting BS in all its myriad religious forms. But the bottom line is the same, little interest and little time spent on anything non-Mormon but still religious. In other words, for most people, LDS Church - Joseph Smith = Atheism.

This is based on the assumption that the Resurrection Narrative (for example) is somehow less improbable than the First Vision.

Could you maybe fast forward to the part where you explain how the fantastical elements elements of Christianity do not suffer from same evidentiary problems as Mormonism?