Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Jason Bourne wrote:
However I have already noted, if you had bothered to read it, that the LDS church does things that meets the the pure altuistic things that many here think are the only things that qualify as charity.


Yeah, but that doesn't not mean donating to them should be considered some ill-advised act of charity where most money is swallowed up in overhead.[/quote]

So if I read you right if someone gives to a charity such as United Way, Red Cross or something like that, because they may have high overhead it is not charity?

By the way, LDS FO funds have no overhead. 100% of the dollars goes out to assist those in need. I do not know what the overhead cost for LDS Humanitarian aid is.

That tells us nothing of the motives of the person donating to them, and there are many non-charitable motives that are involved in that sort of giving.


So only the most selfless motive qualifies for charitable giving classification in your book? Even if the motive is not pure but it goes to help the poor it the giver does it because they thing God commands it or God will bless them then it disqualifies the giving as charitable?

Ah well. I am glad there are people in the world that give because their religion teaches it. Statistics show they give a lot more to charitable causes than non believers.


Ignoring the accuracy of the charge, the argument at hand is that Romney engaged in predatory business practices, but that somehow is forgiven because he's donated a lot to charity. When that "charity" isn't necessarily a sacrifice to help the station of others to offset Romney allegedly hurting people in business, the point is moot.


I don't believe Romney's business practices were predatory. If they were no amount of charitable giving will erase such acts.


As to your point as to why LDS person tithe, I know no one who is motivated by the reason you list.


I'm willing to bet you know lots of people motivated by the reasons I list, though people aren't likely to attribute their actions that way.


Unless you can read minds you certainly won't know one way or the other. But lots of things motivate people to give to lots of differing things. I am just happy they want to give.

I donate to NPR. This isn't charitable because I'm donating to help keep NPR on the air and I like what NPR gives me. I also like the idea that NPR-type programming exists and think the country is better off for it, but I'm not so arrogant as to think I'm "helping others" through funding my personal journalistic and artistic preferences


I think NPR provides a valuable service. I think it is a charitable gift of sorts. I think you are helping others enjoy NPR, especially someone like me who has listened to it for years but never donated to it. Why is it arrogant to think that?

There's some, sometimes much, of that in tithing. People like what their Church gives them and want to support its continued existence.


Ok

I am less a believer than I used to be but I still tithe and likely more for the benefits I percieve I still receive from it. So I am less altruistic in my reasons for tithing than I used to be as a TBM I guess.

I think you are naïve if you don't think that funding one's preferred religious services or making sure one can participate in certain rites doesn't play a role in LDS tithing behavior.


Of course. Yep I am naïve.



Pure and utter bunk. How much of a donation to the American Cancer Society goes to feeding the poor.


I didn't say feeding the poor was the only possible charitable act. I defined it as giving to improve the station of others - to help those in need. One would presume that attempting to improve cancer treatment qualifies.


Well great. There is on thing we can agree on in this thread.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Eric wrote:I think Jason's anecdotal experience shows that the Mormon Church is about as charitable as the Black Panther Party. I can agree with that.


Cute :ugeek:
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I think it's strange to describe the LDS Church as a "charitable" organization: it just plain isn't. I can remember getting into an argument with my seminary teacher over this when I was a kid. I pointed out that, per Church doctrine, you can never really commit a genuinely charitable act because the act is always tied to Church teachings on obedience, blessings, and whatever else. You are always doing it either: (a) because you've been commanded to do it, and/or (b) because you want the blessings. While I think that there are genuinely nice and charitable people within the Church, I don't think you can connect their tendencies to anything that the Church actually teaches.

Jason: you keep mentioning fast offerings, but I see a couple of problems with that if we're looking at the big picture. For one thing, compared with tithing, these are more "voluntary." You can still have a TR if you don't pay FO. Second, there is still a fair amount of pressure placed on members to do this, what with the kids showing up at the door to collect and whatnot. Finally--you'll have to refresh my memory on this one--were you able to disburse those funds however you wanted? Or was there paperwork and bureaucracy involved? I kind of suspect that the things you are describing are closely related just to who you are as a person.

In any case, the notion that Romney's tithing counts as a "charitable donation" is absolutely ridiculous. The Church's stabs at things like community service and disaster relief are pretty ugly, in my opinion. I remember not long ago that we got hold of some brochure that emphasized how important it is to "represent" the Church during these kinds of activities, to ensure you're wearing the yellow shorts (or whatever), and that sort of thing. It effectively says that the Church cares more about the PR impact of charity than the actual act of charity itself.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _EAllusion »

Jason Bourne wrote:

So if I read you right if someone gives to a charity such as United Way, Red Cross or something like that, because they may have high overhead it is not charity?


No, it's just a bad charitable decision. You might as well donate money to Wal*Mart if you are giving money to the LDS Church as a general tithe as means to fund humanitarian aide. There are just far, far more efficient ways to get a higher % of your donation to actual help. Invisible Children of recent "Kony 2012" fame was rightly criticized because it has such a poor overhead ratio (something like 2/3). That's pathetic enough for the money they take in and what they do to the point that people were calling them a fraud. And yet, I'm willing to bet my house that that blows what one gets for tithing to the LDS Church out of the water. So, to the extent that one donates to them for that purpose, it's just ill-advised. You'd be better off with thousands of charities available to you. Happily, I don't think this is a particularly prominent motive in typical LDS tithing behavior.
So only the most selfless motive qualifies for charitable giving classification in your book? Even if the motive is not pure but it goes to help the poor it the giver does it because they thing God commands it or God will bless them then it disqualifies the giving as charitable?


I think an act of giving should be altruistic to be considered charitable, yes. Otherwise help to others is an incidental effect of acting in one's own self-interest. If a person does it because God commands it and they think whatever God commands is morally right, that's one thing. If they do it because they think they'll get something out of it - like God personally blessing them or not letting harm befall them - then I don't see how that is charity. It's a spiritual business transaction. That's like saying my purchasing a Coke was an act of charity because a % of that is going to help people either directly through funding employment or indirectly through Coke's corporate charity work done for PR and tax purposes. Every transaction is an act of charity on this analysis. That makes the term pointless. And, in any case, if you want to conceptualize donations to the Mormon Church this way, I fail to see how that helps Romney in the argument at hand.

Mitt Romney's alleged predatory business practices that hurt people is Ok because he used the money he made from that to buy stuff. And a % of his purchases incidentally helped others. That's a winning argument to you?
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _huckelberry »

This remark my not help the fine point here but I am happy to hear that Mr Romney pays tithing. It demonstrates some participation in responsibiities to a larger social network. There is some possibity the fellow will become president. I hope he keeps some memory of relating to people beyond his economic class. He doesn't always sound like he does.
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _why me »

Mitt also gives a fast offering and we really don't know what organizations he gives to privately.
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _DarkHelmet »

When you pay tithing you are giving money to the LDS church to help build up god's kingdom. The 3 fold mission of the church is: Perfect the saints, proclaim the gospel, and redeem the dead. When you pay tithing, you should expect the vast majority of your money will go to the three fold mission. Mitt Romney mainly donated to building temples, printing manuals, support missnaries, etc.
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Tchild »

Bond James Bond wrote:Hopefully this link will stay up (skip ahead to 14:00 for my reference):

My final thought I guess is that Maher was wrong, but that Mitt Romney's wealth was earned in a sleazy manner.

I guess my question for the board then, to provide a topic for discussion, is does giving to charity exonerate the way the money was earned? How about the mitigating or aggrevating factor of which charity that money is given to?

all right go.

It is easy for outsiders to look in and judge another's motives, intentions and actions, and to apply some sort of subjective moral hierarchy to those actions; Red Cross = better charity -- Mormon church = Lesser charity.

No such hierarchy exists. It is all subjective. The Mormon church would NOT flourish if it didn't add value to people's lives. There is no other reality to it than that.

As for "vulture" capitalism - again, nothing but subjective moral hierarchial labeling. Are vultures unneccesarry in nature, serving no purpose at all? Capital(ism) in all its forms serves very necessary needs in the marketplace. Companies that are bought (taken over), streamlined and made profitable is another necessary aspect of the "creative destruction" that takes place in capitalistic marketplaces.

in my opinion - Romney's earnings are neither "sleazy" nor do they require him to donate to charity as some sort of penance for his success. His money was earned legally, and he has nothing to apologize for, whether he has 250 million or 2.5 billion.

Just so people can be honest with themselves, there is no such thing as a purely altruistic charitable donation. Everyone has their own motives and none are without some sort of personal reward when they give time or money.

Besides, Maher (what moral authority does he have to be the arbiter?) is in the entertainment business, dishing out artificial and hyped polemics to serve his own interests, to get ratings, viewers and to create profit for his large corporate employers.
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Doctor Scratch wrote:I think it's strange to describe the LDS Church as a "charitable" organization: it just plain isn't. I can remember getting into an argument with my seminary teacher over this when I was a kid. I pointed out that, per Church doctrine, you can never really commit a genuinely charitable act because the act is always tied to Church teachings on obedience, blessings, and whatever else. You are always doing it either: (a) because you've been commanded to do it, and/or (b) because you want the blessings. While I think that there are genuinely nice and charitable people within the Church, I don't think you can connect their tendencies to anything that the Church actually teaches.



Then as Tarski points out there are no true charitable acts because ultimately someone gives because they are motivated by something, if nothing more than than the good feeling they get when they give.

And if you think nothing the LDS church teaches motivates people to give I simply don't know what to say. Try starting with Mosiah Chapter 4.

Jason: you keep mentioning fast offerings, but I see a couple of problems with that if we're looking at the big picture. For one thing, compared with tithing, these are more "voluntary." You can still have a TR if you don't pay FO.


So that makes the program of giving to the FO fund to assist the poor non charitable? Based on what many argue for here I think that weighs if the favor of FO being charitable.


Second, there is still a fair amount of pressure placed on members to do this, what with the kids showing up at the door to collect and whatnot.


So what? And didn't you just contradict yourself?


Finally--you'll have to refresh my memory on this one--were you able to disburse those funds however you wanted? Or was there paperwork and bureaucracy involved? I kind of suspect that the things you are describing are closely related just to who you are as a person.


Fairly independent. If there were expenses for medical costs over I believe $5000 I had to ask the SP to approve. If over I believe $25,000 the SP had to ask the area president who is a 70. If I had someone long term on assistance the SP might talk to me about what we were doing to help get the person standing on their own again. But my SP at least never told me to stop assisting someone. That is all the bureaucracy involved.

The Church's stabs at things like community service and disaster relief are pretty ugly, in my opinion. I remember not long ago that we got hold of some brochure that emphasized how important it is to "represent" the Church during these kinds of activities, to ensure you're wearing the yellow shorts (or whatever), and that sort of thing. It effectively says that the Church cares more about the PR impact of charity than the actual act of charity itself.


I will agree that the self serving yellow shirts that say Mormon Helping Hands is ostentatious at the least. In fact it seems to fly in the face of the NY directive to give privately. However, if I read you correctly you would rather the people not show up and help with disasters rather than show up wearing the shirts. I am sure those that were impacted last late summer and early fall by the Hurricanes followed by torrential rains the flooded so much of the Northeast where I live were quite happy with the disaster aid the LDS Church and it people gave in spite of the shirts. Ugly as it may have been. :rolleyes:
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Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Jason Bourne »

DarkHelmet wrote:When you pay tithing you are giving money to the LDS church to help build up god's kingdom. The 3 fold mission of the church is: Perfect the saints, proclaim the gospel, and redeem the dead. When you pay tithing, you should expect the vast majority of your money will go to the three fold mission. Mitt Romney mainly donated to building temples, printing manuals, support missnaries, etc.


Under Monson there providing for the poor was added to the three fold mission now making it four, though they no longer refer to it that way.
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