I think there’s a certain amount of truth here, but none of these address the core issue. In my opinion, the core issue is this: going from Mormonism to Christianity is simply going from one type of mythology to another type of mythology. In the end it’s all just mythology. I’d like to know what other people in this forum think.
Sure. It's probably some combination of all of the above. Being the only true Church, we are at the pinnacle of Christianity so nothing less can satisfy. Either the LDS Church is true or no religion is true. I would hazard that LDS who can remain Christian after leaving the Church are general the liberal type who never accepted the Church's truth claims literally.
bcspace wrote:Sure. It's probably some combination of all of the above. Being the only true Church, we are at the pinnacle of Christianity so nothing less can satisfy.
I thought that was a Snickers bar, not the true church.
Either the LDS Church is true or no religion is true.
That's silly.
I would hazard that LDS who can remain Christian after leaving the Church are general the liberal type who never accepted the Church's truth claims literally.
Or maybe they're the type that decides which official publications are official.
I can't see myself ever becoming atheist because that in itself implies a 100% surety and I'm not willing to go that far.
This is a common misunderstanding. Atheism does not imply a 100% surety. Atheism is lack of a belief in God. It is NOT a certainty that there is no God or could not possibly be a God. Similarly, I don't believe that aliens landed in New Mexico in 1947. But I don't know to a 100% certainty that they did not; just that I have not seen enough evidence to convince me that they did. Ditto for Bigfoot, thetans, Zeus, pink unicorns on the dark side of the moon, etc. I don't believe in any of those things because there is not enough evidence to persuade me they exist. But I am always open to the possibility that someone may discover and present evidence that is persuasive. This is the fundamental difference between atheists and religious believers: atheists are humble enough to be open to have their minds changed based on evidence, and believers are proud in their certainty that they are right.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Aristotle Smith wrote: I meant something very specific by this.
The ex-Mo exit story has a very limited number of permutations. Most follow a standard script. People get curious about church history for whatever reason, then they read all about Book of Abraham, Nauvoo polygamy/polyandry, blacks and the priesthood, Masonry and the temple, Book of Mormon anachronisms, etc. At some point they "see the light" and leave the church. A large percentage, probably the majority, become atheists/agnostics/secularists.
The thing you need to take note of is what is not in the standard script. No mention of existence of God, faith in Jesus, the problem of evil, critical issues surrounding the Bible, etc. All of these issues speak directly to theism and to the overwhelmingly predominant Western forms of theism. Yet, most ex-Mos throw theism out without even thinking about these things for any length of time whatsoever. So the conclusion is simply that for most Brighamite Mormons, once you take away the LDS distinctives there is no belief in God left. That's what I mean by LDS Church - Joseph Smtih = Atheism. Empirically, I don't even think there is much of an argument here.
I also reject the standard defense you posted above that once you realize the LDS church is mythology that you quickly realize that all other religious beliefs are mythology. Note, I changed your words to say what you probably meant to say. My guess is that you probably think you are mythology free at this point, ignoring any number of metanarratives (modern mythologies) you do believe in. In any case, the average ex-LDS tends to show little interest and spends little time investigating belief outside of the LDS context. Many times they trot out the "it's all mythology" line or they think that their encounter with bad LDS history and doctrine gives them super powers in detecting BS in all its myriad religious forms. But the bottom line is the same, little interest and little time spent on anything non-Mormon but still religious. In other words, for most people, LDS Church - Joseph Smith = Atheism.
Hi AS. Do you have actual stats about the "average ex-mo" not investing little time in investigating outside beliefs? I ask because that is very far removed from my personal experience and I didn't really think I was an exception.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Aristotle Smith wrote: I also reject the standard defense you posted above that once you realize the LDS church is mythology that you quickly realize that all other religious beliefs are mythology.
As I noted before, the problem here is that the more skeptically minded LDS are the ones to figure out the church is not true. They will carry that skepticism on when viewing other religions, and lets face it, they don't fair much better then LDS truth claims and why I should believe them accurate.
dblagent007 wrote:Aristotle, what do you believe is the most persuasive reason (or reasons) to believe there is a God? I'm sincerely curious because I'm having a hard time identifying any.
Still waiting for Mr. Spock to respond to these questions, since he made a big deal about how Christians (unlike Mormons) do not rely on "feelings and impressions" in determining spiritual truths.
just me wrote:Hi AS. Do you have actual stats about the "average ex-mo" not investing little time in investigating outside beliefs?
I ask because that is very far removed from my personal experience and I didn't really think I was an exception.
It's removed from mine, too. I've visited a lot of churches and done my homework. But, you know, since the church is the pinnacle of Christianity, nothing else satisfies.
dblagent007 wrote:Aristotle, what do you believe is the most persuasive reason (or reasons) to believe there is a God? I'm sincerely curious because I'm having a hard time identifying any.
It's going to vary from person to person. From a generic standpoint different evidences are put forward in standard textbooks of philosophy of religion, theology, and apologetics. You might start there.
From my own personal experience, here's what kept me a theist:
I found the gospel narratives very compelling. I was lucky enough to get to a point in my life where I was able to read the gospel stories without Mormon tinted lenses. I found in Jesus someone who was both utterly foreign to me and my preconceptions, but paradoxically of the utmost relevance.
I found a broadly Christian worldview to be compelling. I really appreciated the thoughts of the Early Church Fathers, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Wesley.
I think that when examined in its totality, Christianity has been on the whole a force for good in the world.
I simply wasn't satisfied with atheist philosophies. At the time I lost my faith in the LDS church I had been studying Nietzsche. While he is a captivating writer, I decided I really didn't want anything to do with the way of life he put forward.
In the end however, I have concluded that evidence either in favor of or against the existence of God is always going to be underdetermined. As such evidence is usually determined by a prior belief or lack of belief in God, i.e. we tend to assume God or his absence and then allow data in as evidence based on those presuppositions. Paul Ricoeur talked about the Masters of Suspicion who made modernity suspicious of God and religion. They didn't exactly give arguments against God, but they gave people reasons to be suspicious about his existence and religions in general. I think this is generally the case for people arguing for or against the existence of God, at best the opposing sides can give elegant suspicions to each other. That's probably the best I can do, give you some suspicions about God's existence.