Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _EAllusion »

Then as Tarski points out there are no true charitable acts because ultimately someone gives because they are motivated by something, if nothing more than than the good feeling they get when they give.


I don't buy that. This is a philosophical thesis called psychological egoism that I don't think is correct. Look up Nozick's experience machine argument for a synopsis why. I think plenty of poeple give to charity not to feel good, but feel good because they accomplished their aim of giving to charity. Sure, people are motivated by something to give to charity, but not all possible motives are selfish in nature. It depends on whether you are giving to advance self-interested aims or not.
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _EAllusion »

EAllusion wrote:Look up Nozick's experience machine argument ...


Here's a synopsis I've quoted here before:

There's a widely-held picture of human motivation that makes it difficult to see this. That picture goes like this. Ultimately, it says, everyone always acts for selfish motives. Whenever we do something on purpose, it's our own purpose that we're trying to achieve. We're always pursuing our own ends, and trying to satisfy our own desires. All that any of us are really after in life is getting more pleasant experiences for himself, and avoiding painful ones. Sometimes it may seem that we're doing things for other people's sake. For instance, we give money to charity, we buy presents for our children, we make sacrifices to please our spouses. But if you look closer, you'll see that even in cases like these, we're still always acting for selfish motives. We only do such things because it makes us feel good and noble to do them, and we like feeling noble. Or we do them because when people we care about are happy, that makes us happy too, and ultimately what we're after is that happiness for ourselves. Hence, since the only aim we have in life is just to have pleasant experiences, Nozick's experience machine gives us everything we want, and it would be foolish not to plug into it.

Now, I grant that some people may be as selfish as this picture says. But I doubt that many people are. The picture rests on two confusions, and once we clear those confusions up, I think there's no longer reason to believe that the only thing that any of us ever aims for in life is to have pleasant experiences.

The first confusion is to equate "pursuing our own ends, and trying to satisfy our own desires" with "acting for a selfish motive." To call a motive or aim "selfish" isn't just to say that it's a motive or aim that I have. It says more than that. It says something about the kind of motive it is. If my motive is to make me better off, then my motive is a selfish one. If my motive is to make you better off, then my motive is not selfish. From the mere fact that I'm pursuing one of my motives, it doesn't follow that my motive is of the first sort, rather than the second.

Ah, you'll say, but if my aim is to make you better off, then when I achieve that aim, I'll feel good. And this good feeling is really what I'll have been trying to obtain all along.

This is the second confusion. It's true that often when we get what we want (though sadly not always), we feel good. It's easy to make the mistake of thinking that what we really wanted was that good feeling. But let's think about this a bit harder. Why should making someone else better off give me a good feeling? And how do I know that it will have that effect?

Consider two stories. In story A, you go to visit the Oracle, and in her waiting room you see a boy bending spoons and a girl levitating blocks. You feel this inexplicable and unpleasant itch. Someone suggests as a hypothesis that the itch would go away if you gave the girl a spoon too. So you do so, and your itch goes away.

In story B, you walk into the same room, and you don't like the fact that the girl has no spoon. You would like her to have a spoon too. So you take a spoon and give it to the girl, and you feel pleased with the result.

In story A, your aim was to make yourself feel better, and giving the spoon to the girl was just a means to that end. It took experience and guesswork to figure out what would make you feel better in that way. In story B, on the other hand, no guesswork or experience seemed to be necessary. Here you were in a position to straightforwardly predict what would bring you pleasure. You could predict that because you had an aim other than making yourself feel better, you knew what that aim was, and usually you feel pleased when you get what you want. Your aim was to give a spoon to the girl. Your feeling of pleasure was a consequence or side-effect of achieving that aim. The pleasure is not what you were primarily aiming at; rather, it came about because you achieved what you were primarily aiming at. Don't mistake what you're aiming at with what happens as a result of your getting what you're aiming at.

Most often, when we do things to make other people better off, we're in a situation like the one in story B. Our pleasure isn't some unexplained effect of our actions, and what we're primarily trying to achieve. Our pleasure comes about because we got what we were primarily trying to achieve; and this makes it understandable why it should come about when it does.

Once we're straight about this, I think there's no argument left that the only thing anyone ever aims for in life is to have pleasant experiences. Some people do aim for that, some of the time. But many cases of giving to charity, making sacrifices for one's spouse, and so on, are not done for the pleasure they bring to oneself. There's something else that one is after, and pleasure is just a pleasant side-effect that sometimes comes along with getting the other things one is after.

Nozick said that most of us do value more than our own experiences, that there are things that we value that we'd miss out on if we plugged into the Matrix. I think Nozick is right. He's right about me, and he's probably right about you, too. We can easily find out. I've devised a little thought-experiment as a test.

Suppose I demonstrate to you that your friends and I are very good at keeping secrets. For instance, one day when Trinity isn't around, we all make lots of fun of her. We read her journal out loud and laugh really hard. We do ridiculous impersonations of her. And so on. It's hilarious. But of course we only do this behind Trinity's back. When she shows up, nobody giggles or snickers or anything like that. You're completely confident that we'll be able to keep our ridicule a secret from Trinity. She'll never know about it.

Suppose I also demonstrate to you that I am a powerful hypnotist. I can make people forget things, and once forgotten they never remember them. You're convinced that I have this power.

Now that you know all of that, I offer you a choice. Option 1 is I deposit $10 in your bank account, but then your friends and I will make fun of you behind your back, the way we made fun of Trinity. If you choose this option, then I will immediately use my hypnotic powers to make you forget about making the choice, being teased, and all that. From your point of view, it will seem that the bank made an error and now you have $10 more in your account than you had before. So in terms of what experiences you will have, this option has no downside. You won't even have to suffer from the expectation of being secretly teased, because I'll make you forget the whole arrangement as soon as you make your choice.

Option 2 is we keep things as they are. I pay you nothing, and your friends are no more or less likely to make fun of you behind your back than they were before.

So which would you choose?

When I offer my students this choice, I find that at least 95% of them choose Option 2. They think that the teasing would be a bad thing, even though they'd never know it was going on.

If the teasing doesn't seem so bad, then change the example. Say that in Option 1, your lover is cheating on you, but you never know about it. Or say that we're torturing your mother, but you never know about it. In every version, your experiences are smooth and untroubled, plus you get a little extra money. Which option would you choose?

If you find Option 2 more attractive, then that's support for Nozick's claim. The experience machine wouldn't give you everything you value. Option 1 gives you no experiences of being teased. It gives you no evidence that your lover is cheating on you, or that your mother is being tortured. But you don't just want to have experiences of things going well for yourself and your mother. You value really not being teased, really having a faithful lover, and really having an untortured mother.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _sock puppet »

Doctor Scratch wrote:I think it's strange to describe the LDS Church as a "charitable" organization: it just plain isn't. I can remember getting into an argument with my seminary teacher over this when I was a kid. I pointed out that, per Church doctrine, you can never really commit a genuinely charitable act because the act is always tied to Church teachings on obedience, blessings, and whatever else. You are always doing it either: (a) because you've been commanded to do it, and/or (b) because you want the blessings.

I had almost that exact conversation with a seminary teacher when I was 15. I phrased it that the carrot and the stick system of religion (earning blessings and avoiding wrath) undercut the possibility of altruism. My seminary teacher agreed, explaining that he thought true spirituality required one to rise above the rails that religion provides. He continued that he thought we all needed those rails to get 'on the right track' and headed in the right direction, in the first place.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Jason Bourne »

EAllusion wrote:

I don't buy that. This is a philosophical thesis called psychological egoism that I don't think is correct. Look up Nozick's experience machine argument for a synopsis why. I think plenty of poeple give to charity not to feel good, but feel good because they accomplished their aim of giving to charity. Sure, people are motivated by something to give to charity, but not all possible motives are selfish in nature. It depends on whether you are giving to advance self-interested aims or not.


Ok. I would suggest very few obtain this level. Or if not all are at this point even LDS persons who donate more to the FO fund because the bishop asks the congregation for additional funds due to a high need.
_krose
_Emeritus
Posts: 2555
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:18 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _krose »

Tchild wrote:As for "vulture" capitalism - again, nothing but subjective moral hierarchial labeling. Are vultures unneccesarry in nature, serving no purpose at all?

Well, since capitalism is not nature, with its nicely balanced circle of life, there is a better analogy.

Bain Capital sometimes invests in companies and improves them. But it also sometimes acts as a corporate chop shop, with companies instead of cars, and these chopped-up companies happen to have human employees.

If they believe they can get a good return by investing in a business, they'll do it. But if they think they will make more profit for themselves by borrowing against the company's assets, pocketing the cash, killing benefits and laying off workers, and then selling it off for scrap, they will.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
_Tarski
_Emeritus
Posts: 3059
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Tarski »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Then as Tarski points out there are no true charitable acts because ultimately someone gives because they are motivated by something, if nothing more than than the good feeling they get when they give.


??

I don't remember saying this but if I did I retract it. Motivations are motivations of course, but not all are created equal. I pretty much agree with EA (and Noziuk).

Much is hidden in the word "ultimately".
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Sorry Tarski. It was TChild.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Jason Bourne »

At least the Maher hates all tax deductions for things he views as not charity and a bad thing.

Mahar should simply lobby to get IRC Sec. 501(c)(3). For whatever reasons our political leaders have long felt giving a deduction and thus using lost revenue to benefit Church's, Universities, Arts, Medical Research an groups supporting medical issues such as the American Heart Association or the American Cancer Society, Benevolent Societies, Pure Charities as well as other organizations like Planned Parenthood, NPR, NY Bike Advocacy groups, AAA and on and on is a positive benefit for our society.

Maher however is seemingly in the minority on this. I wonder if he gives to any such organizations and takes the deduction?
_Hasa Diga Eebowai
_Emeritus
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:57 am

Re: Maher on Romney's charity to the Mormon Church 4/27/2012

Post by _Hasa Diga Eebowai »

-
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply