The disaffected Mormon problem

[_Aristotle Smith]

Hi AS. Do you have actual stats about the "average ex-mo" not investing little time in investigating outside beliefs?
I ask because that is very far removed from my personal experience and I didn't really think I was an exception.

I'm not aware of any study which gives this data. I can give John Dehlin's non-scientific study which tends to corroborate my experiences and assertions:

http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-co ... ar2012.pdf

Page 7 gives evidence that most ex-Mos are not theists.

Also, take a look at the factors that lead to disbelief on page 8. The data shows that LDS people lose their faith overwhelmingly based on LDS distinctives. I think that data backs up my assertion that LDS pay little attention to generic belief issues during their disaffection, while they are consumed with LDS specific issues. The question you then have to ask is this: If around a quarter of the respondents rated loss of a belief in Jesus and God as major factors, why are over 50% atheists?

Now to answer your specific question, why do I claim that few investigate outside beliefs after the fact. While I have no hard data to back this up I give two reasons. First, I find it hard to believe that most people would treat basic belief issues as unimportant prior to disaffection, then all of a sudden put in the research and thinking to study basic belief issues after their disaffection. Second, in my experience I have rarely met an ex-Mo who can give me a cogent summary of arguments, evidences, and problems dealing with generic faith isues and/or Christian issues. But, these same people are well versed on Book of Abraham, DNA and the Book of Mormon, peepstones, polyandry, etc.

I fully admit that most of this is just my experience, there really isn't a lot of public data available about this stuff. I also fully admit that Dehlin's study is not scientific in any way. If someone has good data that contradicts my experience, I'd love to see it.

[_just me]

Hi AS. Do you have actual stats about the "average ex-mo" not investing little time in investigating outside beliefs?
I ask because that is very far removed from my personal experience and I didn't really think I was an exception.

I'm not aware of any study which gives this data. I can give John Dehlin's non-scientific study which tends to corroborate my experiences and assertions:

http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-co ... ar2012.pdf

Page 7 gives evidence that most ex-Mos are not theists.

Also, take a look at the factors that lead to disbelief on page 8. The data shows that LDS people lose their faith overwhelmingly based on LDS distinctives. I think that data backs up my assertion that LDS pay little attention to generic belief issues during their disaffection, while they are consumed with LDS specific issues. The question you then have to ask is this: If around a quarter of the respondents rated loss of a belief in Jesus and God as major factors, why are over 50% atheists?

Now to answer your specific question, why do I claim that few investigate outside beliefs after the fact. While I have no hard data to back this up I give two reasons. First, I find it hard to believe that most people would treat basic belief issues as unimportant prior to disaffection, then all of a sudden put in the research and thinking to study basic belief issues after their disaffection. Second, in my experience I have rarely met an ex-Mo who can give me a cogent summary of arguments, evidences, and problems dealing with generic faith isues and/or Christian issues. But, these same people are well versed on Book of Abraham, DNA and the Book of Mormon, peepstones, polyandry, etc.

I fully admit that most of this is just my experience, there really isn't a lot of public data available about this stuff. I also fully admit that Dehlin's study is not scientific in any way. If someone has good data that contradicts my experience, I'd love to see it.

When I filled out that survey I gave answers based on what caused me to lose belief in the LDS church and not what caused me to lose belief in Christianity. I guess I could have been the only one who answered that way but somehow I doubt it.

[_Mary]

This is a common misunderstanding. Atheism does not imply a 100% surety. Atheism is lack of a belief in God. It is NOT a certainty that there is no God or could not possibly be a God. Similarly, I don't believe that aliens landed in New Mexico in 1947. But I don't know to a 100% certainty that they did not; just that I have not seen enough evidence to convince me that they did. Ditto for Bigfoot, thetans, Zeus, pink unicorns on the dark side of the moon, etc. I don't believe in any of those things because there is not enough evidence to persuade me they exist. But I am always open to the possibility that someone may discover and present evidence that is persuasive. This is the fundamental difference between atheists and religious believers: atheists are humble enough to be open to have their minds changed based on evidence, and believers are proud in their certainty that they are right.

I've read a few of Dawkin's books. The Selfish Gene, The God Delusion. Really enjoyed them and I think he makes some really great points which I sympathise with. The world needs people like him. Also sympathise with Philip Pullman's (The Amber Spyglass etc) position as represented through his books for children.

I'm not prepared like Dawkin's though to go as far as 99%. He does give 1% to uncertainty!

My evidence comes through personal experience of the divine on a few occasions in my life, when my father died and as a young child. 50% Faith (although that can go down or up from day to day because I tend to forget), and a heck of a lot of hope!!

[_why me]

I think there’s a certain amount of truth here, but none of these address the core issue. In my opinion, the core issue is this: going from Mormonism to Christianity is simply going from one type of mythology to another type of mythology. In the end it’s all just mythology. I’d like to know what other people in this forum think.

Mormonism is all encompassing in its belief system with a complete picture of a preexistence and an afterlife in detail. All other christian faiths can only offer vague explanations of eternity and have no preexistence. In other words, when exmormons compare other christian faiths to Mormonism, they come up short in many instances.

And this is a problem for people leaving Mormonism.

[_why me]

I've read a few of Dawkin's books. The Selfish Gene, The God Delusion. Really enjoyed them and I think he makes some really great points which I sympathise with. The world needs people like him. Also sympathise with Philip Pullman's (The Amber Spyglass etc) position as represented through his books for children.

I'm not prepared like Dawkin's though to go as far as 99%. He does give 1% to uncertainty!

My evidence comes through personal experience of the divine on a few occasions in my life, when my father died and as a young child. 50% Faith (although that can go down or up from day to day because I tend to forget), and a heck of a lot of hope!!

Dawkins has made millions off his atheism. But he is just the latest in a long line of successfully rich atheists who have made their mark with such books. No one can disprove god. They can make their case and people can decide for themselves. It has always been this way with people supporting the atheist view. Belief in god is not very popular in europe where secular relativism is ruling the day. Across europe, atheism is gaining ground among the christians. And it has much to do with values these days. Dawkins knows how to take advantage of it.

[_why me]

The thing you need to take note of is what is not in the standard script. No mention of existence of God, faith in Jesus, the problem of evil, critical issues surrounding the Bible, etc. All of these issues speak directly to theism and to the overwhelmingly predominant Western forms of theism. Yet, most ex-Mos throw theism out without even thinking about these things for any length of time whatsoever. So the conclusion is simply that for most Brighamite Mormons, once you take away the LDS distinctives there is no belief in God left. That's what I mean by LDS Church - Joseph Smtih = Atheism. Empirically, I don't even think there is much of an argument here.

In other words, for most people, LDS Church - Joseph Smith = Atheism.

But you miss the obvious: when Mormonism fails all other christian faiths fail too. Mormonism is too complete to be replaced by another christian faith. Other faiths come up short for many. Thus, the only other choice is atheism. I cannot say that it is LDS distinctiveness. Rather it is LDS completeness that causes the problem.

Now if one is dissatisfied with protestantism, one can find a home in catholicism. The doctrine is more or less the same when it comes to god even if the service or mass is different. Former catholics can find a home in penecostalism etc. But for Mormonism, it is another matter. Too complete with answers.

[_why me]

Escaping Mormonism is like escaping prison. After escaping prison, who goes looking to see if some other prison will let them in?

Not quite. People can leave Mormonism at anytime they want. But here is the difference: those who had a testimony and lost it will find it difficult to replace the faith with another faith. However, if one joined the LDS without a testimony, they have no problems moving on into other areas of belief. It all has to do with testimony and loss of testimony.

[_why me]

Yes.

I was always disappointed when we would have a nice special music number in sacrament meeting and some poor investigator would inevitably clap...bringing glares from everyone in the congregation.

I always wanted to say, "oh so the meeting is too solemn and holy for this guy to clap, but not too solemn and holy to keep you from dicking around on your palm pilot during the talks?"

I have never heard anyone clapping during catholic mass either. Or during a lutheran service. It comes with the turf. And I have never seen anyone glare at an investigator clapping. Most however know that a church service is not a place to clap. And in terms of ipads etc, well, they also contain the Book of Mormon, the Bible and other scripture not to mention the ensign and other oddities. Don't assume that they are reading their emails.

Also, sacrament meeting is rather informal. We have normal people attempting to give talks. And since most have not attended the joyce meyer school of public speaking it can be a chore. But then again, were your talks exciting that the members were jumping up and down in the aisles and on the benches?

[_why me]

Trust me, it comes down to personal preference. As someone with some background in Pentecostalism, I often feel like LDS prayers are dispassionate and rigid.

LDS prayers are formal as are catholic prayers. It is a sign of respect that one would have to a kind and benevolent father.

[_Mary]

Edited to remove.