Buffalo wrote: Let me clarify, they're comparable because they are all very controlling, authoritative religions who really go all out to demonize people who leave.
Leaving the LDS church is nothing like leaving the Lutherans or Unitarians, and other proper churches.
i forgot how delightful it is to discuss with you. There is nothing to compare between such exits? Alright. I'm sure you're right in all of this. It sounds just so true--my bosom burned just now.
You can find similar communities of former believers online, who were once Mormons, JWs or Scientologists. Their exist stories and complaints are very similar.
There's a reason there is no RecoveryFromLutheranism.com, however. It's the difference between an authoritative, controlling church that demonizes dissent, and one that allows more freedom of mind and action.
Peace be unto you, Mr. Stem.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:You can find similar communities of former believers online, who were once Mormons, JWs or Scientologists. Their exist stories and complaints are very similar.
There's a reason there is no RecoveryFromLutheranism.com, however. It's the difference between an authoritative, controlling church, and one that allows more freedom of mind and action.
Peace be unto you, Mr. Stem.
It just occurred to me that, as a believing Mormon, I thought a church that allowed more freedom of mind and action was a sure sign of the Apostasy. "Easy" churches were those that flattered people into believing they could do what they wanted, whereas it was hard to be a member of the true church. In a weird way, the demands on time, money, behavior, etc., validated the belief that we had the truth.
Runtu wrote:Authoritarian, controlling religions are much harder to leave than more mainstream religions. I read recently about closet unbelievers among Hasidic Jews. Their identity, community, and family are so tied to their religion that expressing unbelief risks losing everything. So, they stay and pretend.
I think this might be the core issue here.
While the Mormon church might be somewhat authoritarian and controlling, we can't forget how culturally integrated it is. Being as such, we can't say it's hard to leave the Mormon Church just because despots reign within. Rather, it is hard to leave because we end up breaking lots of china dishes on the way out. I mean the china that you and mother painted during childhood. Or the china that you placed on the shelf with grandpa, while listening to grandmother playing Chopin.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
zeezrom wrote:I think this might be the core issue here.
While the Mormon church might be somewhat authoritarian and controlling, we can't forget how culturally integrated it is. Being as such, we can't say it's hard to leave the Mormon Church just because despots reign within. Rather, it is hard to leave because we end up breaking lots of china dishes on the way out. I mean the china that you and mother painted during childhood. Or the china that you placed on the shelf with grandpa, while listening to grandmother playing Chopin.
Agreed, but it's important to remember that the cultural integration is part of the control mechanism.
Runtu wrote: It just occurred to me that, as a believing Mormon, I thought a church that allowed more freedom of mind and action was a sure sign of the Apostasy. "Easy" churches were those that flattered people into believing they could do what they wanted, whereas it was hard to be a member of the true church. In a weird way, the demands on time, money, behavior, etc., validated the belief that we had the truth.
What a strange thing to finally realize.
I thought the same, but I was always troubled that the church's approach to agency seemed closer to Satan's plan than God's plan.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:I thought the same, but I was always troubled that the church's approach to agency seemed closer to Satan's plan than God's plan.
My mission president explained that, if we gained our exaltation in the celestial kingdom, we'd receive even more commandments:
And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time—they that are faithful and diligent before me. (D&C 59:4)
He thought that was wonderful. I thought it sounded like more stuff I couldn't measure up to.
Runtu wrote:Agreed, but it's important to remember that the cultural integration is part of the control mechanism.
Just curious why you think that is important to remember.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
zeezrom wrote:Just curious why you think that is important to remember.
You seemed to be distinguishing between the controlling aspects and the cultural integration. I was just saying that they are part of the same thing.
Thanks Runtu. I was curious why because I really wasn't sure why, but was thinking along the same lines as you.
I would seriously like to explore why it might or might not be important to distinguish between a church that is controlling and one that is culturally integrated. Are these aspects one and the same? Are they tied at the hip? Are they exclusive of one another?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
zeezrom wrote:Thanks Runtu. I was curious why because I really wasn't sure why, but was thinking along the same lines as you.
I would seriously like to explore why it might or might not be important to distinguish between a church that is controlling and one that is culturally integrated. Are these aspects one and the same? Are they tied at the hip? Are they exclusive of one another?
I don't think they are necessarily related. Catholicism is heavily integrated into the culture of its members. Granted, leaving Catholicism is more difficult than leaving, say, Lutheranism, but it's far less traumatic than leaving Mormonism, from what I can see.
