Romney's Latest Lies

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_Droopy
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Droopy »

You can't draw a beeline from unemployment rate to job performance of a government,


I see no reason to believe that you can't, on a national scale, depending upon specific conditions of governance and policy given within a specific time period under a specific administration.

As we know what it is under Obama/Democratic governance that has exacerbated, intensified, and deepened the original recession, and as we know, with a good degree of precision, why the recession began in the first place (precipitated by the government policy created housing mortgage bubble), and as we know why so many American businesses are holding onto their money and refraining from hiring new personnel (massive uncertainty in the immediate future as to tax and regulatory disruptions of private sector economic activity), we can draw such a beeline, under contemporary conditions, and we can actually place George Bush and the early 2000nds Republican congress on a fork in that line.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Droopy:

Why do you hate "the Left" so much? I mean, haven't "Democratic" policies essentially enabled you to do what you do? As I understand it, you have more or less been living off the government dole for most of your life (social security, disability, and what have you), and that the only "real" job you've ever held down is some kind of lawn-mowing gig. So why would you want to rail against a political ideology that has allowed you to subsist?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Buffalo
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Buffalo »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Droopy:

Why do you hate "the Left" so much? I mean, haven't "Democratic" policies essentially enabled you to do what you do? As I understand it, you have more or less been living off the government dole for most of your life (social security, disability, and what have you), and that the only "real" job you've ever held down is some kind of lawn-mowing gig. So why would you want to rail against a political ideology that has allowed you to subsist?


Self-loathing is Droopy's watchword.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Droopy
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Droopy »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Droopy:

Why do you hate "the Left" so much?



Because of the way in which the Left despises humanity, and has done so much, over so long a time, to degrade and debase that humanity in every circumstance in which it is allowed to govern and control a nation, kindred, tongue and people.

I mean, haven't "Democratic" policies essentially enabled you to do what you do? As I understand it, you have more or less been living off the government dole for most of your life (social security, disability, and what have you), and that the only "real" job you've ever held down is some kind of lawn-mowing gig. So why would you want to rail against a political ideology that has allowed you to subsist?


Scratch, really, you would be a continuous source of comic relief were it not for the fact that I actually think you're serious about much of what you say, which is "funny," but not in the purely comic sense.

I have never been on disability. I have never (and never will, nor many in my generation, nor their children), receive Social Security. I was on AFDC, food stamps, and WIC off an on in the early eighties (the second Carter/Keynesian/progressive recession coming out of the seventies) - over thirty years ago - and I have worked most of my adult life. I have not worked for some years now because of I was financially independent for this span of time and was taking care of my wife (recovering from terminal cancer, and beset by a number of other physical problems) with that financial independence allowed me to do. I also took that time to go back to school and work toward some academic goals, which I paid for out of my own pocket.

I don't know how you manage to make this stuff up, Scratch, but I can see why Daniel finally simply gave up and quite discussing anything with you and others like you at all.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Joyful wrote:AND NOW FOR THE TRUTH! Your charts mean nothing ( I keep saying " Your" to aggravate you, :lol: )


Unemployment Record Worst Since WW II Under Obama


By Matt Cover
February 17, 2012

On the third anniversary of President Barack Obama’s $787-billion stimulus spending program, the unemployment rate set a new record, staying above 8 percent for the longest period since the end of World War II – 36 months.

That is the longest continuous period of above-8-percent unemployment since the end of World War II, according to figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).


Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/unemployment- ... z1t400OACu


Well when you draw the line at 8% sure. But why not 10%?

Under Ronald Reagan unemployment was over 10% for something like 6 months straight. I bet if you take the median unemployment rate for the first three years of Obama and Reagan, they'd be pretty much the same. You can't rely on FOX News to tell the truth about much of anything.
_Droopy
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Droopy »

Under Ronald Reagan unemployment was over 10% for something like 6 months straight. I bet if you take the median unemployment rate for the first three years of Obama and Reagan, they'd be pretty much the same. You can't rely on FOX News to tell the truth about much of anything.



It was 8% in Reagan's first year in office, and rose to 10.8% in his second year (1981 and 1982) respectively. This was the second great Carter recession, the first wave of which hit in the late seventies (after gathering steam under Nixon) and continued on into the early 80s, lasting until 1983, when Reagan's across the board tax cuts, including business, income, payroll, and eventually, capital gains cuts, as well as significant deregulation (some of which began belatedly under Carter) began to take effect.

Don't be fooled by Mr. Graham, Juliette, he's a near totalitarian statist with little if any faith in or respect for the individual and his/her unalienable rights (but he talks a very good left-wing populist game regarding "the poor" as a theoretical abstraction, much like his comrade in intellectual arms, David Bokovoy). His god is the state, and he worships at its clay feet. This guy has been seen here in times past attempting a sugar coated revision of our understanding of what life was like in the old Soviet Union, so its hardly shocking that, for him, Reagan is the Devil personified (he also sent me once to the Workers World as a source for a claim he had made about the legal environment in the United States. Kind of like me sending someone to Infowars as a source for facts and evidence on 9/11).
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Kevin Graham
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Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Kevin Graham »

In July 1980 unemployment was at a thirty year high at 7.8% but went down gradually until Reagan took office January 1981.

Blaming the Carter recession won't work because the rates were improving until Reagan took over. Comparing this to the recession Obama inherited, which is the worst since the great Depression, is just ridiculous. Unemployment rate had been going up at a sharp incline the previous twenty four months prior to Obama, whereas unemployment had leveled off and then dropped before Reagan took over in 1981. Obama jumped in the cockpit of a crashing plane and saved it from destruction. Reagan jumped in and screwed things up in less than six months.

Here are the monthly unemployment rates for Reagan's first term:

1981
January - 7.5
Feb - 7.4
Mar - 7.4
Apr - 7.2
May- 7.5
Jun - 7.5
Jul - 7.2
Aug - 7.4
Sep - 7.6
Oct - 7.9
Nov - 8.3
Dec - 8.5

1982
Jan - 8.6
Feb - 8.9
Mar - 9.0
Apr - 9.3
May - 9.4
Jun - 9.6
Jul - 9.8
Aug - 9.8
Sep - 10.1
Oct - 10.4
Nov - 10.8
Dec - 10.8

1983
Jan - 10.4
Feb - 10.4
Mar - 10.3
Apr - 10.2
May - 10.1
Jun - 10.1
Jul - 9.4
Aug - 9.5
Sep - 9.2
Oct - 8.8
Nov - 8.5
Dec - 8.3 9.52 average three years

1984
Jan - 8.0
Feb - 7.8
Mar - 7.8
Apr - 7.7
May - 7.4
Jun - 7.2
Jul - 7.5
Aug - 7.5
Sep - 7.3
Oct - 7.4
Nov - 7.2
Dec - 7.3

As you can see Reagan's unemployment rate averaged 9.52% over his first three years.

Now compare this to Obama's first three years which has an 8.7% monthly average. In his fourth year the unemployment rate has been going down gradually every month.

As usual, FOX News and Droopy have no idea what they're talking about. The so-called "Reagan Boom" which happened in his second term, was a result of the Fed cutting interest rates, as most economists agree. Reagan did cut taxes but he in fact increased taxes no less than six times. Droopy is just another idiot who relies on his myths. The Reagan Myth has been exposed.
_Droopy
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Droopy »

Kevin Graham wrote:In July 1980 unemployment was at a thirty year high at 7.8% but went down gradually until Reagan took office January 1981.

Blaming the Carter recession won't work because the rates were improving until Reagan took over. Comparing this to the recession Obama inherited, which is the worst since the great Depression, is just ridiculous.


As usual, because you have no understanding of economics whatsoever, nor of how free markets work and why tax rates, regulation, fiat money creation, and other forms of government manipulation and intervention in the economy alter economic dynamics and economic behavior, posting a series of numbers such as this is utterly useless as analysis unless you have a substantive, coherent theory and template for understanding what was actually happening to produce those numbers. Just listing them is worthless.

The nation had faced three severe recessions up to 1983-84 when Reagan's tax and deregulation policies began effecting the economy and the incentives and calculations that underlie human economic behavior. The first in 1969 and the last began in 1981. In 1979, inflation hit double digits (the European norm, generally speaking) and unemployment hit 10.8% in Reagan's second year in office. The entire inflation/unemployment/economic decline syndrome was grounded fundamentally in fallacious and/or ideologically driven economic policies that, over more than a decade, devastated the American economy and moved it toward European style economic sclerosis (where Obama is desirous of taking it today).

Keynesian demand-side deficit spending, the creation of ever more new money out of thin air, high, expropriationary tax rates, bracket creep, the eating up of the value of money by "galloping" inflation (another government created tax, in essence), and an ideologically anti-business, anti-free market animus within the Carter administration (as is the case today); wage and price controls (Nixon and Carter), and blood red populist class envy chum ("windfall profits" taxes etc.) thrown to a generation of Americans suckled on the black milk of class resentment, all took their toll.

Inflation hit 11.3% in 1979, and then 13.5% (nice, European rates of inflation here, of the cutting-America-down-to-size kind so beloved of people like Obama and Chu et al). Double digit inflation hit 21.5% in 1980.

Oh, but that's not all. The poverty rate, which the "war on poverty" was initiated to alleviate, begin an uphill climb (another one actually, as welfare rolls had been expanding dramatically since the late sixties, and especially in the seventies, under Nixon) in 1978. It peaked at around 33% (up from 11.4% to 15.2% on average). Real median family income declined dramatically. Stocks collapse during the late seventies, the Dow Jones losing some 70% of its real value.

This is why just listing unemployment figures for a series of years and pointing out that Reagan was President for part of the time those same numbers had been deeply embedded in the American economy is without analytical weight. By 1989, unemployment was at 5.3% In 1984 alone, real economic growth hit 6.8% - a fifty year high mark. Those same policies initiated the longest peacetime economic boom in United States history, creating almost 20 million new jobs (most in median and upper wage areas such as construction, engineering, middle management, and a large small business boom), and brought inflation down to 6.2% by 1982 - essentially cut in half from the time Reagan entered office. A year later, it halved again, to 3.2%.

The crux of all this is that there is a small grain to truth to what Graham is saying. The only way to bring rampaging inflation of the kind underway at that time was a policy of tight money - the creation of phantom money in the quantities traditionally sought by Keynesian theory had to stop, and Reagan stopped it. Part of the 1981- 82 recession was in consequence of those tight money policies. Other aspects of it were long term holdover effects from the fundamental nature of the economy as it had developed in the seventies. Once inflation was under control, and American business had been weened of its addiction to so much funding of its activities through inflation, the economy begin to heal, and finally, took off.

It was only George H.W. Bush and a new class of "moderate" Republicans in league with the traditional leftist Democrats who killed the rate and depth of the expansion after 1989.

I could go on and on, listing the really amazing successes of the overall "Reaganomic" program, as its an object lesson in how to roll with the fundamental laws of economics (praxology) instead of kicking and screaming against them because they are ideologically indigestible.

One interesting point, however, is that, while the Reagan recovery averaged 7.1% economic growth across its fires seven quarters, Obama's policies, to the degree that they've actually had anything to do with the recovery that has occurred at all, have averaged a 1.8% economic growth rate (and remember "creating jobs" per se has no necessary relation to economic growth).

If Obama's policies have helped at all, they haven't helped very much. This is a poor substitute for what works.















Here are the monthly unemployment rates for Reagan's first term:

1981
January - 7.5
Feb - 7.4
Mar - 7.4
Apr - 7.2
May- 7.5
Jun - 7.5
Jul - 7.2
Aug - 7.4
Sep - 7.6
Oct - 7.9
Nov - 8.3
Dec - 8.5

1982
Jan - 8.6
Feb - 8.9
Mar - 9.0
Apr - 9.3
May - 9.4
Jun - 9.6
Jul - 9.8
Aug - 9.8
Sep - 10.1
Oct - 10.4
Nov - 10.8
Dec - 10.8

1983
Jan - 10.4
Feb - 10.4
Mar - 10.3
Apr - 10.2
May - 10.1
Jun - 10.1
Jul - 9.4
Aug - 9.5
Sep - 9.2
Oct - 8.8
Nov - 8.5
Dec - 8.3 9.52 average three years

1984
Jan - 8.0
Feb - 7.8
Mar - 7.8
Apr - 7.7
May - 7.4
Jun - 7.2
Jul - 7.5
Aug - 7.5
Sep - 7.3
Oct - 7.4
Nov - 7.2
Dec - 7.3

As you can see Reagan's unemployment rate averaged 9.52% over his first three years.

Now compare this to Obama's first three years which has an 8.7% monthly average.

As usual, FOX News and Droopy have no idea what they're talking about.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Droopy »

As usual, FOX News and Droopy have no idea what they're talking about. The so-called "Reagan Boom" which happened in his second term, was a result of the Fed cutting interest rates, as most economists agree. Reagan did cut taxes but he in fact increased taxes no less than six times. Droopy is just another idiot who relies on his myths. The Reagan Myth has been exposed.


"Most economists" agree on no such thing. You've used this tired tactic time and again (as with Obamacare and the housing collapses) and all it ends up being, each and every time, is a carefully cherry picked list of people either deeply ensconced within the very government agencies lying at the root of a problem, or ideologically committed partisans.

When I provide competent/distinguished experts who disagree, you dismiss them as "right wing."

Cutting interest rates does produce booms, as it helped fuel the massive re-inflation of the housing market bubble no sooner had the ashes cooled from the popping of the first one, with mortgage interest rates dropping to 0% and the government bailing out ever more under water mortgages in a desperate initial attempt to provide bread to the masses (with circuses to follow), but it doesn't produce, real, sustainable market based economic expansion. What interest rate cuts as economic damage control, "stimulus" spending, and debt creation actually end up producing is a "boom and bust" cycle that comes and goes as government created debt bubbles grow, burst, and regrow again over time (and the continuing pumping of phantom money into the economy ignites ever expanding inflation).

Lowering interest rates is fine - so long as those rates represent the real market price of interest, and not a political price. When low interest rates do not represent the real market rate as dictated by the laws of the market, artificial booms ensue (such as in housing) fueled by easy money that encourages malinvestment and risky behavior that otherwise would be restrained by higher interest rates.

The wild housing boom of the nineties and early 2000nds, fueled by ever soaring house prices, artificially low interest rates, and restrictive zoning policies (severe in places like California) was a product of such dynamics.

The Reagan boom was a real boom, however, and was fueled by a proper understanding of praxology in the economic realm and the rational, intelligent policies put in place to encourage economic activity, rather than discourage and punish it. Low interest rates, by themselves, do not produce real, sustained economic growth. To do that, you have to encourage and incentivize productive economic activity. Higher taxes discourage productive economic activity (and very high tax rates, such as America's corporate and individual income taxes for upper earners, cause the entrepreneurial, job creating classes to opt out of putting their money at risk). So too with oppressive, exaggerated business regulation, inflation (caused by continuous fiat money creation and its insertion into the economy without a corresponding increase in products and wealth), and a chaotic, unpredictable business environment (such as the one Obama has now created).
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Doctor Scratch
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Posts: 8025
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Re: Romney's Latest Lies

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Droopy wrote:Scratch, really, you would be a continuous source of comic relief were it not for the fact that I actually think you're serious about much of what you say, which is "funny," but not in the purely comic sense.

I have never been on disability. I have never (and never will, nor many in my generation, nor their children), receive Social Security. I was on AFDC, food stamps, and WIC off an on in the early eighties (the second Carter/Keynesian/progressive recession coming out of the seventies) - over thirty years ago - and I have worked most of my adult life.


Which means, of course, that you happily lapped at the joys of social safety-net programs. You lived off the taxpayers' mite.

I have not worked for some years now because of I was financially independent for this span of time and was taking care of my wife (recovering from terminal cancer, and beset by a number of other physical problems) with that financial independence allowed me to do.


"Financial indepence"? What does that mean? You've said right here on this board that the only "real" job you've ever held down was mowing lawns. How does that add up to "financial independence"? were they paying you a hundred bucks for every blade of grass you cut?

Look: I'll level with you, Loran. I was told by someone reliable on here that you've never worked your entire life. Whether this means that you've been suckling at the government teat, or whether you've got some wealthy relative to mooch off of---I don't know. What is quite clear is that your personal background doesn't square very well with your politics, hence why you are so evasive and secretive about all of it.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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