Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehlin?

[_RayAgostini]

What I have a problem with is people like Greg Smith writing lengthy slams against members of the LDS Church who are in good standing. I find the whole enterprise to be low and despicable. To the extent that Daniel Peterson assists in such attacks, I have a problem with him. These aren't just statistics. They are people with feelings, who hold membership in the same Church as these guys do. Unless I have it wrong, no one has appointed them to a calling whereby they hunt down people who don't share their particular religious views and hold them up to public criticism, lampooning, and ridicule.

I see, Dan has no feelings. It's a-okay for Scratch to produce six years of "hit pieces" on Dan here at MDB, and you're a-okay with that.

Got it.

[_Kishkumen]

If the hit piece was (is) published, maybe the reverse happens … an even cursory study of John’s work might reveal to the searcher that John’s fruits have been that of a Sheppard, not a wolf, reflecting poorly on the attackers.

Undoubtedly there will be those who come away from the Mopologetic slam with a bad taste in their mouth. After all, I would not be here were that not the case for me back in the '90s. But I think one has to assume that more people will not than do. If it were the case that many, many people reacted as we do, then the apostles probably would have put a stop to this nonsense long ago.

As Scratch said, and I think he is dead on here, in the Mormon community the perception of who is more allied with the priesthood authorities often carries the argument.

As for John’s “local leaders” being trigged to nuke him because of a hit piece … come on, they have known and dealt with him for many years now. He is not new on their radar.

And look at all the interviews that John seems to get with the GA’s trying to find direction to slow the decay. That must drive MI/FAIR absolutely nuts. No, they would have exed John way back if they were going to. It would take a radical act on John’s part, not DCP or Scott or anyone else at this point to get him ex’ed

Leaders are released and called all the time. Who's to say that John would not get a new bishop or stake president in the near future who'd read the thing and decided to take action against this "bad apple."

[_Doctor Scratch]

What I have a problem with is people like Greg Smith writing lengthy slams against members of the LDS Church who are in good standing. I find the whole enterprise to be low and despicable. To the extent that Daniel Peterson assists in such attacks, I have a problem with him. These aren't just statistics. They are people with feelings, who hold membership in the same Church as these guys do. Unless I have it wrong, no one has appointed them to a calling whereby they hunt down people who don't share their particular religious views and hold them up to public criticism, lampooning, and ridicule.

I see, Dan has no feelings. It's a-okay for Scratch to produce six years of "hit pieces" on Dan here at MDB, and you're a-okay with that.

Got it.

What "hit pieces"? I've picked on him and made fun of him sometimes, and I've offered up legitimate criticisms of some of his actions. Plus, as you yourself pointed out, no one reads this board, so what I say really doesn't matter. Certainly, it's not on the same scale--it lacks the authority, gravitas, the institutionalized organization and funding, and the Official Stamp of Approval--as the FARMS Review.

You've really lost your objectivity, Ray. Even if you want to call my criticism "hit pieces," it begs the question: why are you okay with a hit piece on Dehlin, whom you say you "admire"? If you disapprove of "hit pieces" on DCP, then why not the ones about Dehlin?

[_Doctor Scratch]

If the hit piece was (is) published, maybe the reverse happens … an even cursory study of John’s work might reveal to the searcher that John’s fruits have been that of a Sheppard, not a wolf, reflecting poorly on the attackers.

Undoubtedly there will be those who come away from the Mopologetic slam with a bad taste in their mouth. After all, I would not be here were that not the case for me back in the '90s. But I think one has to assume that more people will not than do. If it were the case that many, many people reacted as we do, then the apostles probably would have put a stop to this nonsense long ago.

As Scratch said, and I think he is dead on here, in the Mormon community the perception of who is more allied with the priesthood authorities often carries the argument.

As for John’s “local leaders” being trigged to nuke him because of a hit piece … come on, they have known and dealt with him for many years now. He is not new on their radar.

And look at all the interviews that John seems to get with the GA’s trying to find direction to slow the decay. That must drive MI/FAIR absolutely nuts. No, they would have exed John way back if they were going to. It would take a radical act on John’s part, not DCP or Scott or anyone else at this point to get him ex’ed

Leaders are released and called all the time. Who's to say that John would not get a new bishop or stake president in the near future who'd read the thing and decided to take action against this "bad apple."

Yeah, this is a good point. While I think that Rockslider is mostly right, it is certainly possible that a new leader could step in. This is what happened with Mike Quinn: he successfully avoided punishment until at last he was in the stake boundaries of one of BKP's pet Stake Presidents. (Hanks was the guy's name, If I recall correctly.) And in this case--based on what I've been told--it seems like Elder Packer is on Greg Smith's and the apologists' side. So John has every right to be concerned. BKP could install a new, unsympathetic SP and have Dehlin ex'ed.

[_RayAgostini]

You've really lost your objectivity, Ray. Even if you want to call my criticism "hit pieces," it begs the question: why are you okay with a hit piece on Dehlin, whom you say you "admire"? If you disapprove of "hit pieces" on DCP, then why not the ones about Dehlin?

Did I say I was okay with it? I said I'd read it and then offer my opinions. In fact I said the opposite, that I'd probably not be okay with it, particularly if there is any attempt to paint John as a "wolf" with ulterior motives and trying to lead people away from the Church.

[_Kishkumen]

I see, Dan has no feelings. It's a-okay for Scratch to produce six years of "hit pieces" on Dan here at MDB, and you're a-okay with that.

Got it.

Ray, who has the pull with the Church to put someone's membership in potential peril?

Who is the editor of a print journal that publishes under the auspices of the LDS Church's flagship university?

Let's stick to the topic. Greg Smith wrote a 100-page criticsm of John Dehlin. This would be wrong whether or not Scratch even existed.

Bottom line: I don't buy that we are talking about equivalent issues here. I know you have been dying to transform it into one since first you stepped into the fray here. I simply don't see Scratch's activities rising to the level of imperiling a person's membership in the faith of their upbringing.

And, alas, I am not interested in hashing out another, "yeah, but Scratch..." argument again. It seems to me that it is little more than a maneuver to shut down any criticism of Daniel. Oh, you guys are fortunate to have it. Yes, the surface appearance of hypocrisy is richly abundant. But the difficulty is that what Scratch has done to Daniel is nothing compared to the power of the LDS Church, its authority, and its resources in the hands of its intellectual Danites.

[_RayAgostini]

It seems to me that it is little more than a maneuver to shut down any criticism of Daniel.

I've done a great job, haven't I? I've bombarded all of your recent threads/criticisms of him. I've really done all I can to make sure you never start another DCP thread criticism. And it's been a roaring success. I've finally shut you up and you never say another critical word about DCP. Yep, that's me alright.

[_Doctor Scratch]

You've really lost your objectivity, Ray. Even if you want to call my criticism "hit pieces," it begs the question: why are you okay with a hit piece on Dehlin, whom you say you "admire"? If you disapprove of "hit pieces" on DCP, then why not the ones about Dehlin?

Did I say I was okay with it? I said I'd read it and then offer my opinions. In fact I said the opposite, that I'd probably not be okay with it, particularly if there is any attempt to paint John as a "wolf" with ulterior motives and trying to lead people away from the Church.

Well, as I've said, it would be very easy for you to email DCP and find out.

[_Willy Law]

I'm not only taking about missionaries, but stake presidents and bishops. I think you grossly underestimate their general ignorance of these matters.

Just my personal experience, but I am going to agree with Ray. Recently came clean to my parents. Dad is a two time bishop, stake presidency and about every other leadership calling you can imagine. My Mom has also been in every leadership calling a women can hold (Relief Society president) and has also gone to education week every year for the past 10 or so years. Neither of them had ever heard of Daniel Peterson, FARMS or FAIR.

I also talked to them about John Dehlin, John Larsen and Joanna Brooks and shared John's Why People Leave video. I told my parents I have no intention of resigning from the church, but if the church decides to go after any of them I will not only resign, but would also become very vocal about the church.

[_harmony]

Things are a lot different now than they were when the Sept Six were exed.

Take a page out of Murphy's press book. The press, maybe even the AP, would eat this kind of thing up, especially right now.

And I think that is exactly what the GA thought, too. Best to shut it down than to risk a media nightmare.