Saving reprehensible Hamblin, Peterson etc comments

[_Buffalo]

Well, well, well ... I can now see why John Dehlin was so anxious to see Greg Smith's article censored.

I have now read about 1/3 of the article. It is an absolutely devastating piece of work--devastating to Dehlin's proclaimed "objectivity" and "balance," that is.

That said, I have yet to identify a single instance of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Quite to the contrary, what the article does is use Dehlin's own words, meticulously assembled and cited, to demonstrate that he (Dehlin) is what I have long claimed him to be: an apostate evangelist, whose objective is to erode the faith of the Saints.

The sooner this article appears in print, the better: it will conclusively expose Dehlin for what he really is.

[_Buffalo]

reelmormon - I see you go by a pseudonym. Maybe you've been publicly maligned and slandered before with your real name, I don't know. But if you haven't....you might want to think about what that would be like before you judge my actions.

More importantly, I honestly, sincerely believe that MI/FARMS/FAIR hurt the church, its members, apologetics, and the people they target when they stoop to ad hominem attacks, so I feel justified in escalating to church leadership. I am told that an apostle and several GA's were involved in telling the Maxwell Institute to stop this piece. If you support your priesthood leaders, then maybe you might consider that my escalation was a good thing, not a bad one.

Just a thought for you to consider. Feel free to dismiss.

[_Buffalo]

Of course, he had his reasons. But one of those reasons cannot have been that he had already read the article itself.

The beauty of what has happened over the course of the past 72 hours is that Dehlin has managed to raise awareness of the article, and produce a buzz of anticipation for it, thus guaranteeing a larger audience than it ever would have had otherwise.

As for "responding to it with his own arguments" ... well, I'm rather persuaded that Greg has left no room for that. If there were, prior to now, any doubts in the minds of faithful LDS concerning Dehlin's motives and agenda, Smith's paper will dispel them all.

[_Buffalo]

Well, well, well ... I can now see why John Dehlin was so anxious to see Greg Smith's article censored.

I have now read about 1/3 of the article. It is an absolutely devastating piece of work--devastating to Dehlin's proclaimed "objectivity" and "balance," that is.

That said, I have yet to identify a single instance of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Quite to the contrary, what the article does is use Dehlin's own words, meticulously assembled and cited, to demonstrate that he (Dehlin) is what I have long claimed him to be: an apostate evangelist, whose objective is to erode the faith of the Saints.

The sooner this article appears in print, the better: it will conclusively expose Dehlin for what he really is.

Let me get this straight. The article does not contain a single instance of ad hominem, meaning an attempt to counter his efforts by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of Dehlin. Instead it shows conclusively that Dehlin is "an apostate evangelist, whose objective is to erode the faith of the Saints."

This type of reasoning is why so many people, including many of those within the Church itself, are embarrassed by Mormon apologists.

[_Buffalo]

Matthew J. Tandy,

I regret my vitriol, but I feel like the true offense is FAIR/FARMS/MI/Peterson/Midgley style ad hominem and personal attacks, but you may disagree with me, which is fine. I know at least a few GA's and an apostle who seem to agree with me though, so I know that I'm not alone in my feelings that what they do is hurtful and counterproductive.

I included GA's and cc'd Daniel Peterson for the simple fact that for the most part (if not entirely) he stopped responding to my emails to him a long, long time ago. It was the only way I could think of to get his attention. I honestly think he means to harm me, so why would he respond to polite email requests? That was my thinking, anyway.

I'm eager to include more faithful participants on MS, but I have sincere concerns about the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham (among other things), so when someone comes on defending them, I am only asking sincere, honest questions out of genuine concern. At least I bring both sides into the discussion. Can't say the same for FAIR or the Maxwell Institute.

Anyway, I won't try to convince you any more. All I'll say is....I'm trying to do what I feel is right. And I feel like the Maxwell Institute and Peterson/Midgley are hurting A LOT of people in how they do things, and I believe that bullies should be stood up against. And I honestly believe that they are bullies. Mean ones. Even if they smile and have the capacity to be polite and witty too.

[_Buffalo]

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/577 ... e__st__200

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[_Buffalo]

Hopefully, once this Dehlin article is finally printed and out the door, Greg can turn his sights on Brooks.

[_Kishkumen]

Hopefully, once this Dehlin article is finally printed and out the door, Greg can turn his sights on Brooks.

You mean the woman whose testimony is included on Mormon Scholars Testify?

Nice. Real classy.

If Daniel and Bill are smart, they'll get Schryver to shut his trap about attacking the very same people they have solicited for a public testimony of the Gospel that is currently published online.

[_Buffalo]

For John Dehlin.

Greg Smith says thanks for all the extra material for his lengthy appendix he is now writing for his paper.

Guess 104 pages was just not enough for this fascinating topic.

It is fascinating to note that if Dehlin had not attempted to suppress the article it might have garnered a few hundred readers when published. Since he has created a scandal about it by trying to suppress it, it will now no doubt reach thousands.







Since Dehlin is eager to tell all sides of every story, I'd be happy to volunteer to appear on his Mormon Stories podcast to discuss Greg's paper, Dehlin's attempt to suppress its publication, and the state of LDS apologetics.

Well, John, will you accept my offer?







I'm puzzled by the fact that, if Dehlin has really been upset for years about the alleged ad hominem articles published by FARMS/MI, why did he only decide to suppress publication of an article about him? Why didn't he start suppressing articles years ago?

[_Buffalo]

There was no irony in my statement.

There is a major deficiency in comprehension on your part. Indeed, I have noted that this particular species of deficiency is disproportionately common among the ex-Mormon apostate evangelist crowd. I'm not quite sure why that is.

As for the Smith article concerning John Dehlin, it is not, by any means, anything that could be reasonably characterized as an "ad hominem attack piece", considering the fact that virtually all of the damaging material is drawn directly from Dehlin's own words!

I have read many ad hominem attack pieces in my day--several of which have made me their target. I know what an ad hominem attack piece looks, sounds, and smells like. Greg Smith's article does not qualify under the pertinent criteria.

In any event, I am confident your case is hopeless. We shall never enlighten you on this particular topic.

So ........... back to the inimitable Dehlin.

As I mentioned somewhere else earlier today, a couple Saturdays back I had a long phone conversation with the venerable Lou Midgley--who, ironically enough, has been made the target of several ad hominem attacks at the hands of John Dehlin. In that conversation, I predicted that, sooner or later, Dehlin would self-destruct; that his apostasy would lead him into a lapse of judgment that would permanently cripple his influence among the Saints, just like Korihor of old.

I am pleased to have so soon seen the fulfillment of that casual prediction.

The irony at this stage of the game is that Dehlin is so completely blinded by narcissistic delusions, that he can actually state, in a public setting, bizarre things such as this:

I just think it's funny to hear believers criticizing me for going to a church leader when I feared that someone was going to do harm to the church (which is sincerely part of what I feared). That seems like the perfectly LDS thing to do.

Once more, it's pretty clear that they agreed (for whatever reason) that the piece should be scuttled....so for believers to complain about the acts of GA's and apostles...well...that's just even more bizarre.

In my mind, this wasn't about censorship. It was about using the church's own levers of power to try to keep DCP, Midgley, etc. from harming the church, LDS apologetics, BYU and many others more than they already have. It was confronting a bully. So sad that a few of you want to protect the abusers – even when the brethren have spoken on the matter. So odd -- but consistent with why I deplore LDS apologetics so much. Sleep well, I guess.

He believes he is riding the crest of a wave; his power and influence at its all-time apex; his objectives on the verge of ultimate fulfillment. But, in reality, the events of the past few days (and no doubt the next few as well) have sealed his fate, along with that of all those who have chosen to make common cause with him.

I am a great fan of dramatic and profound ironies, and this one is almost Shakespearean in its scope and depth. I'm loving every minute of it as it unfolds …