Tobin wrote:Not really. Joseph Smith had just published the Book of Mormon and then received the papyrus and was shown the origin story as I described. He just assumed incorrectly that the papyrus was the source and that they were written by Abraham (which was physically impossible). In fact, he published the Book of Mormon and had no idea where it took place either. Joseph Smith's understanding and knowledge was imperfect and even his understanding of the gospel was developing over time.
Allow me to remind you that the Facsimiles and the Explanations that ride with them are PART of the Book of Abraham and are married to the text ("origin story"), chapter and verse. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are scripture in LDS canon. Whether you choose to accept that or not, I don't give a damn. Nonmembers investigating the church can obviously make a determination and that doesn't bode well for your Translator, Joseph Smith.
Own up. You're weak. LDS apologists are lying to themselves and everyone else!
Shulem wrote:Allow me to remind you that the Facsimiles and the Explanations that ride with them are PART of the Book of Abraham and are married to the text ("origin story"), chapter and verse. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are scripture in LDS canon. Whether you choose to accept that or not, I don't give a damn. Nonmembers investigating the church can obviously make a determination and that doesn't bode well for your Translator, Joseph Smith. Own up. You're weak. LDS apologists are lying to themselves and everyone else! Paul O
Oh, I don't disagree that publishing the Facsimiles is a mistake and they should remove them and not state it was translated. There is no basis for maintaining either of those positions. As far as those investigating the Church, I'd highly encourage them to take a very critical eye towards it too. The only good reason to be a Mormon is if God tells you that you should. And heartburn is NOT God telling you to join Mormonism either.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Well, we'll see which of us is correct in time. If, after you die, you find you still exist - then let's discuss it then. As you know, I have to concede that you may be correct. That is only reasonable. I do not think you are however.
See who is right in time? ARE YOU NUTS? I live in the here and NOW! Forget about discussing this in the afterlife when it is entirely too late and you wasted your time in defending a lie! How about you just succomb to modern science -- confess that Joseph Smith was not an Egyptian translator as are none of the First Presidencies to follow and that they are all wrong.
You can walk away from Mormonism and build a new life. Do it. Build a new life based on honestly and how YOU want to make it. Do it while it is called "today".
Hanging on to Mormonism is a lost cause when YOU know it isn't true. Quit torturing yourself!
Tobin wrote:Wow, progress. Now we are getting somewhere. Now, when was the Book of Abraham written by Joseph Smith? Before or after the Chaldeans settled in Mesopotamia? And how should we properly name the progenitors of the Chaldeans? Would you accept the Book of Abraham if Joseph Smith had called them the forefathers of the Chaldeans? It didn't seem the Jewish scholars felt a need to and many Christians seem to accept the Bible just fine and even believe in it.
So it would be appropriate for someone, in translating the journals of Columbus, to translate his references to the Inglesi and Francese as Canadese?
Hilarious!
So basically all we still have is the poor apologetic that maybe they did exist somewhere. Now as to human sacrifices. Tobin I don't care if other groups knew about or were engaging in human sacrifices, or even if Egyptian knew some other groups were doing it. We still don't see any evidence that they were. We do see lots of evidence for what things they were doing and what they believed in. So it would still be unprecedented for them to be trying to sacrifice Abraham to their Gods. In the end we still have some big anachronisms.
Tobin wrote:Oh, I don't disagree that publishing the Facsimiles is a mistake and they should remove them and not state it was translated. There is no basis for maintaining either of those positions. As far as those investigating the Church, I'd highly encourage them to take a very critical eye towards it too. The only good reason to be a Mormon is if God tells you that you should. And heartburn is NOT God telling you to join Mormonism either.
I guess, I just don't get you. You're a strange bird. Perhaps we are birds of a feather?
Tobin wrote:I've already answered that. I do not believe the Book of Abraham was translated from the papyrus. It is an origin story. It was shown to Joseph Smith by the Lord and he wrote it down. The impetus for this was the Egyptian papyrus and there is no evidence that Joseph Smith could read hieroglyphics or had any idea what was actually contained in the Egyptian papyrus.
Never thought much of this theory. To many problems including God be deceptive and stupid at the same time. Maybe that's why many apologists are desperate for a missing scroll theory that has been debunked.
Shulem wrote:See who is right in time? ARE YOU NUTS? I live in the here and NOW! Forget about discussing this in the afterlife when it is entirely too late and you wasted your time in defending a lie! How about you just succomb to modern science -- confess that Joseph Smith was not an Egyptian translator as are none of the First Presidencies to follow and that they are all wrong. You can walk away from Mormonism and build a new life. Do it. Build a new life based on honestly and how YOU want to make it. Do it while it is called "today". Hanging on to Mormonism is a lost cause when YOU know it isn't true. Quit torturing yourself! Paul O
I understand you demand proof now. That is the difference between us. I have faith that you'll have proof in time. You do not believe that there is an afterlife nor a God. Which of us is correct? Well, there is one way to be certain. If we both exist after we die, I guess you'll be changing your tune.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Themis wrote:So basically all we still have is the poor apologetic that maybe they did exist somewhere. Now as to human sacrifices. Tobin I don't care if other groups knew about or were engaging in human sacrifices, or even if Egyptian knew some other groups were doing it. We still don't see any evidence that they were. We do see lots of evidence for what things they were doing and what they believed in. So it would still be unprecedented for them to be trying to sacrifice Abraham to their Gods. In the end we still have some big anachronisms.
As I've said, you are suffering from poor assumptions all around here. They adopted the Egyptian Gods. That does not mean they stopped other practices like human sacrifice, which we all know was practiced in the region. Ur of Chaldees was not in Egypt.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Themis wrote:Never thought much of this theory. To many problems including God be deceptive and stupid at the same time. Maybe that's why many apologists are desperate for a missing scroll theory that has been debunked.
The Missing Scroll Theory is dead on arrival. It can't work. Suppose they find the rest of the missing scroll? What's on it? The very thought terrifies John Gee. He'd simply read more funerary literature and he damn well knows it. Looking at the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 tells you all you need to know about the source material of the Book of Abraham text and how Joseph Smith translated it. If members of the church will just put science and common sense ahead of their testimonies they will find it much easier to dump their testimonies.
The Book of Abraham is a lost cause. The faithfull are left clutching to the story chapters but are forced to deny the Facsmilies. It's very painful for the faithful as they struggle to hold on for dear life.
Themis wrote:So basically all we still have is the poor apologetic that maybe they did exist somewhere. Now as to human sacrifices. Tobin I don't care if other groups knew about or were engaging in human sacrifices, or even if Egyptian knew some other groups were doing it. We still don't see any evidence that they were. We do see lots of evidence for what things they were doing and what they believed in. So it would still be unprecedented for them to be trying to sacrifice Abraham to their Gods. In the end we still have some big anachronisms.
As I've said, you are suffering from poor assumptions all around here.
Enlighten us.
They adopted the Egyptian Gods.
Who is they and please provide evidence.
That does not mean they stopped other practices like human sacrifice, which we all know was practiced in the region.
Feel free to provide evidence, especially of Egyptians doing it.
