Book of Mormon geography

[_Tobin]

As a beliver in revelation, I feel that God has revealed the Book of Mormon to be part of His doing and since He actually knows everything His knowledge supersedes manmade science.
JMS

So all the evidence contrary to the Book of Mormon narrative is a test of faith?

Have you ever tried to read the Book of Mormon? If that isn't a trial of your faith, I don't know what is.

[_Bond James Bond]

Have you ever tried to read the Book of Mormon? If that isn't a trial of your faith, I don't know what is.

Yes. It *was* a trial.

[_Tobin]

Kidding aside. I really have to wonder about the Mormon leadership. They are losing a lot of people because they simply can't understand the D&C or Book of Mormon. The language is out of date and is inaccessible to many people. The Bible has been modernized and made accessible. I don't know what they are thinking? Of course, I've never understood the whole missionary effort to begin with. It seems like a largely ineffective program and a part of that is the resource materials they use.

[_Chap]

Kidding aside. I really have to wonder about the Mormon leadership. They are losing a lot of people because they simply can't understand the D&C or Book of Mormon. The language is out of date and is inaccessible to many people. The Bible has been modernized and made accessible. I don't know what they are thinking? ....

Leaving aside D&C, there is a crucial difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. We still have the texts of the Bible in Hebrew and Greek on which earlier translations such as that of Tyndall and the King James version are based. It is therefore possible to re-translate those texts into modern English, quite independently of the earlier versions. The result is a modern version, not a 'modernisation' of an older translation.

But you cannot do that with the Book of Mormon, since there are no ancient texts to re-translate from (there probably never were, though that is a separate problem). So all you could do would be to try to go over the English text as dictated by Smith, and try to change the diction so as to make it into modern English. That gives you two kinds of problem:

1. From time to time you will have to decide exactly what the older version meant, in order to produce modern phrasing. With no ancient text to check, how can such decisions be made?

2. For many TBMs, the present English Book of Mormon text seems to function a little like the Arabic of the Quran: it was produced by direct divine inspiration, and should not be tampered with. That's the way God wants to talk to us, so deal with it - a view strengthened by the fact that in the D&C God continues to speak in the same idiom.

Of course all this runs into big problems when the church produces versions of the Book of Mormon in Russian or Chinese. There translation is permitted - but just not into modern English. Don't expect consistency from the CoJCoLDS.

[_Tobin]

1. From time to time you will have to decide exactly what the older version meant, in order to produce modern phrasing. With no ancient text to check, how can such decisions be made?

Large parts of the Book of Mormon come from the Bible or use Bible like phraseology. I don't see making that language modern as being a difficult problem. For the rest, well - the leaders of the Church are supposedly prophets, seers, and revelators - they might have to exercise those titles a bit and seek some inspiration from God. But wow, we wouldn't want that now would we?

2. For many TBMs, the present English Book of Mormon text seems to function a little like the Arabic of the Quran: it was produced by direct divine inspiration, and should not be tampered with. That's the way God wants to talk to us, so deal with it - a view strengthened by the fact that in the D&C God continues to speak in the same idiom.
Of course all this runs into big problems when the church produces versions of the Book of Mormon in Russian or Chinese. There translation is permitted - but just not into modern English. Don't expect consistency from the CoJCoLDS.

Agreed.

[_beastie]

The fact is there is little evidence of large populations in New York during the time period in question and so there is little reason to believe the Book of Mormon took place there. The reason many believe it took place in MesoAmerica is precisely because of the remains of large civilizations and the populations necessary, in close proximity to one another, to sustain such a story.

This is correct. During the Book of Mormon period, the ONLY area in the New World that had population DENSITY, not overall levels, that would be required for the complex civilization described in the Book of Mormon is in Mesoamerica. That is why educated apologists cling so ferociously to it. They know it's their only hope. The fact is that the Book of Mormon civilization is even more complex and evolved than that which existed in Mesoamerica, but at least it's within spitting distance.

[_MCB]

In summation-- there is no place where the events of the Book of Mormon could have taken place-- other than an alternate universe and/or the fertile imaginations of Smith & Co.

[_Shulem]

In summation-- there is no place where the events of the Book of Mormon could have taken place-- other than an alternate universe and/or the fertile imaginations of Smith & Co.

I'll start believing in Book of Mormon geography just as soon as I believe the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are true and correct. The whole thing is one big made up mess.

Perhaps in 500 years Mormonism will finally be swept under the rug where no one will have to look at it anymore. Let alone think about it. Jesus ain't coming, folks. You can forget it.



Paul O

[_Brackite]

I see that the Jaredites got mentioned here. The Jaredites became extinct.
The Following is from the late LDS Apostle, LeGrand Richards:

The Book of Mormon gives a very definite account of who the American Indians are and how they came to the western hemisphere. The first people of whom we have record who occupied the western hemisphere were the Jaredites, who left the tower of Babel at the time of the confounding of their language and the scattering of the people. They were led to America by the Lord:

And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. (Genesis 11:6-8)

In view of the statement "the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth," it is not unreasonable to assume that some of the people were scattered to the land of America, for certainly it is a part of "all the earth."
The Jaredites became extinct through their failure to keep the commandments of the Lord. For an account of this people, see the book of Ether in the Book of Mormon.

[LeGrand Richards: A Marvelous Work And A Wonder: Deseret Book Company: 1976: Page 72.]



The Book of Mormon Proclaims that the Jaredites became completely destroyed.
The Following Scriptural Passages are from the Book of Mormon:

Ether 13:

[1] And now I, Moroni, proceed to finish my record concerning the destruction of the people of whom I have been writing.

...

[20] And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people --

[21] Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

[22] And it came to pass that Coriantumr repented not, neither his household, neither the people; and the wars ceased not; and they sought to kill Ether, but he fled from before them and hid again in the cavity of the rock.




Ether 15:

[29] Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood.

[30] And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.

[31] And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised upon his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.

[32] And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.




Omni 1:

[20] And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.

[21] And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

[22] It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their bones lay scattered in the land northward.

Since the Jaredites became extinct, there are Not any of the Native American People today that are descendants of the Jaredites.

[_Shulem]

Book of Mormon stories that my teacher tells to me
Are about the Lamanites in ancient history.
Long ago their fathers came from far across the sea,
Giv’n the land if they lived righteously.