Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evolution

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_Samantabhadra
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _Samantabhadra »

How could we tell if you were wrong about that?


Wrong about which part, specifically?

In general, though, you could tell I was wrong if you could establish that some phenomenal appearance ultimately existed. But in order to establish something as ultimately existent, you would have to establish that it is permanent and unconditioned. Since there is no such thing as an "unconditioned phenomenon" (in the literal sense of phaino qua appearance), no phenomena are ultimately existent.

More briefly, whatever is conditioned is only relatively existent, and lacks self-nature. Whatever lacks self-nature is not truly existent.
_Chap
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _Chap »

Samantabhadra wrote:
How could we tell if you were wrong about that?


Wrong about which part, specifically?

In general, though, you could tell I was wrong if you could establish that some phenomenal appearance ultimately existed. But in order to establish something as ultimately existent, you would have to establish that it is permanent and unconditioned. Since there is no such thing as an "unconditioned phenomenon" (in the literal sense of phaino qua appearance), no phenomena are ultimately existent.

More briefly, whatever is conditioned is only relatively existent, and lacks self-nature. Whatever lacks self-nature is not truly existent.


You are missing the point of my question, which was not "How could we prove that you are wrong?" but "If you were wrong, would there be any consequence that a normal individual could perceive?".

I'd be happy if you answered that question with reference to the sentences I have bolded above.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _Samantabhadra »

I'm still not sure I understand. You're asking how a "normal individual" could perceive the truth or falsity of what I'm saying. I think anyone can logically analyze their experience and arrive at the conclusion that nothing is truly established to exist. But directly perceiving its lack of establishment? That's a whole different batch of cupcakes, and takes us well outside the realm of "normal individuals."

But I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. If I were wrong, then truly-existing entities would be all over the place, floating in stasis, unable to causally interact with anything around them; if something has a self-nature, then it cannot change or interact with anything else. So if I were wrong, we should be able to observe entities with self-natures, or even self-natures themselves. But no one has ever seen a self-nature, or an entity with self-nature.
_Chap
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _Chap »

Samantabhadra wrote:I'm still not sure I understand. You're asking how a "normal individual" could perceive the truth or falsity of what I'm saying. I think anyone can logically analyze their experience and arrive at the conclusion that nothing is truly established to exist. But directly perceiving its lack of establishment? That's a whole different batch of cupcakes, and takes us well outside the realm of "normal individuals."

But I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. If I were wrong, then truly-existing entities would be all over the place, floating in stasis, unable to causally interact with anything around them; if something has a self-nature, then it cannot change or interact with anything else. So if I were wrong, we should be able to observe entities with self-natures, or even self-natures themselves. But no one has ever seen a self-nature, or an entity with self-nature.


Well, if you choose define "having a self-nature" as "being unable to interact with anything else", then that definition has the consequence that we would be completely unable to perceive an object that has one of these "self-natures", since we can only perceive objects by interacting with them. So there might be such objects - we just would be unable to perceive them, and their existence or non-existence would make no difference to us at all.

This kind of talk is fun. But since the conclusion that objects with self-nature cannot interact with other objects simply follows from your definition of self-nature, it tells us nothing whatsoever about the world, does it? You just get back out of the reasoning process what you put in at the start, neither more nor less.

Let me trespass on your tolerance further, and ask you to give me an example of a major practical decision in everyday human life (as opposed to metaphysical discussion) that you would need to make differently, if it turned out that you were wrong.

I'm just trying, you see, to work out why anyone should consider it worthwhile to put in the effort to understand what you are saying. I hope you take that in the positive sense of my giving you an opportunity to explain yourself rather than of my teasing you. I do the latter sometimes on this board, but when I do you will be able to tell the difference, I think.

[Edited to fix typo.]
Last edited by Guest on Sat May 12, 2012 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

This should pretty much end the question of life and evolution:

http://www.wimp.com/linelife/

- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_mikwut
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _mikwut »

This is an interesting conversation. The Mormon doesn't accept the Big Bang, one of our most evidenced and scientific understandings that we possess. The Mormon is obliged in his own scriptures to seek out and learn from the best books etc.. yet he doesn't accept the big bang????

The metaphysician believes in a cyclical universe that current science rejects?????

The atheists accept the big bang which gives the clearest evidence from science for a beginning and hence a creator, yet science and evidence is the path they are beckoned to follow?????

The Christian accepts the findings of science, accepts the evidence it metaphysically allows for and also accepts a creator. All consistent with the evidence and logic.

The Big Bang is evidenced by some of the most impressive scientific evidence we have ever accumulated. It most likely had a beginning and is not infinite. And therefore most likely came from something (most metaphysics agree with that).

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4658v1.pdf

regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Let me trespass on your tolerance further, and ask you to give me an example of a major practical decision in everyday human life (as opposed to metaphysical discussion) that you would need to make differently, if you it turned out that you were wrong.

I'm just trying, you see, to work out why anyone should consider it worthwhile to put in the effort to understand what you are saying. I hope you take that in the positive sense of my giving you an opportunity to explain yourself rather than of my teasing you. I do the latter sometimes on this board, but when I do you will be able to tell the difference, I think.


It's no trespass! I also find this kind of discussion fun, and since I'm working on a manuscript concerned with these issues at the moment, it's also helpful for my writing process.

Ordinarily we (very much including myself here) interact with the world from a position of de facto realism. That is to say, we behave and expect the world to behave as if mid-size dry objects like pots and mountains are really there--that is to say, as if they really have the self-nature of being pots or mountains. Of course, in reality "pot" and "mountain" are nothing more than conventional designations that we impute atop a particular assortment of partless particles (not "atoms" in the classical sense). And if we analyze further, we can see that even those partless particles necessarily lack any self-nature.

So what's the point of this exercise? Even if somewhere in the back of our minds we intellectually comprehend that "this pot (or mountain) is impermanent," or "composed of atoms and only conventionally designated," or even "unreal," we don't have a direct engagement with its impermanence/mere conventionality/unreality as such. Likewise with ourselves. Everyone understands that they are going to die, but vanishingly few people really deeply truly understand their own death. We think we are the same person we were yesterday, last year, and so on. We think, in other words, that we have the self-nature of being ourselves. Perhaps "thought" is the wrong word, because it's more of a deeply-ingrained subliminal cognitive habit, but I trust you understand my meaning here.

The bottom line is, because we interact with the world in this fundamentally misguided way, we suffer. For example. I have an Xbox 360. I interact with it as though it were a real object that really persisted over time. If one day I woke up and its component partless particles were scattered across the room, I would be very disappointed. The fact that I don't yet completely understand, that I haven't yet completely internalized its impermanence (to say nothing of its unreality), means that I am bound and destined to suffer. And compared to my level of attachment I have to myself, my identity, the level of attachment I have to my Xbox 360 is nothing.

So it's not so much a question of "what would change if I were wrong." I'm not wrong, and at a very basic level, that's why there is suffering: because of the misguided cognitive habit of realism. Once we've recognized that this is the case, it's no longer a question of some single individual human decision; all our decisions are affected, because putting an end to our suffering (and the suffering of others) means interacting with the world in a completely different way than we're used to. Now I suppose if you happen to like suffering, then I guess there is no point in re-orienting your intellectual and/or cognitive framework in this way. But if you don't like suffering, and want to stop suffering, then at some point it will become necessary to understand that the world as we ordinarily experience it does not, in fact, exist in the manner that it appears to, in the manner that we ordinarily experience it. I could start talking about cognitive science and representationalism, and how "what we perceive" bears only the slimmest relationship with "what's out there" (to the extent that it even makes sense to speak of an 'out there'), but that's probably more than enough for now.

Does that help?
_Chap
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _Chap »

Samantabhadra wrote:.... at a very basic level, that's why there is suffering: because of the misguided cognitive habit of realism. Once we've recognized that this is the case, it's no longer a question of some single individual human decision; all our decisions are affected, because putting an end to our suffering (and the suffering of others) means interacting with the world in a completely different way than we're used to. ....


Ah, people at last. But go on: give me an example of how I will act differently in a situation where other people are involved once I give up the 'misguided cognitive habit of realism'. Show me just one way how losing that habit will make me interact with others differently, and why the loss of that habit will effect the change in question.

You see, I know lots of different shops where I can buy metaphysics if I want to. Yours is by no means the only merchandise on offer. I'd like to know what difference it will make to my relations with others if I buy yours rather than going to the shop next door.

Thanks in advance for continuing this discussion.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_EAllusion
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _EAllusion »

mikwut wrote:The atheists accept the big bang which gives the clearest evidence from science for a beginning and hence a creator, yet science and evidence is the path they are beckoned to follow?????


The Big Bang does not support the existence of a god creating the universe.

http://spot.colorado.edu/~morristo/kalam-not.pdf
_mikwut
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Re: Russel M. Nelson comments on big bang theory and evoluti

Post by _mikwut »

Hi EAllusion:

The Big Bang does not support the existence of a god creating the universe.


It supports exactly that your paper notwithstanding. I cited a paper by Audrey Mithani and Alexander Vilenkin which follows from the BVG theorem that preceded it. Even if you believe your paper refutes Craig's greater undertaking of a Christian deity via the Kalam argument your paper offered nothing but speculation in regards to what I cited.

Here is the conclusion of the paper:

3 Did the universe have a beginning?

At this point, it seems that the answer to this question is probably yes. Here we have addressed three scenarios which seemed to offer a way to avoid a beginning, and have found that none of them can actually be eternal in the past. Both eternal in ation and cyclic universe scenarios have Hav > 0, which means that they must be past-geodesically incomplete. We have also examined a simple emergent universe model, and concluded that it cannot escape quantum collapse.

Even considering more general emergent universe models, there do not seem to be any matter sources that admit solutions that are immune to collapse.


Vilenkin has continually showed that the preponderance of the evidence favors a beginning of the universe. There are currently no satisfactory alternatives to this beginning of physical reality. Vilenkin's proof establishes that if there is one it must satisfy four conditions (inconsistency with cosmological observation, internal inconsistency, not subject to the BVG theorem i.e. having an average Hubble expansion greater than zero, if a bouncing model is proposed make sure it avoids the buildup of entropy, Tolman's limit, and Carroll's paradox) which no models have succeeded in doing presently.

Your paper for example offers the proposition of a bouncing universe and accepts mere plausibility and imagination as somehow defeaters towards the actual scientific evidence we currently hold. Just because a hypothetical proposal is thrown out doesn't mean that it corresponds to the past and present nature of the universe. My paper isn't mere imagination and philosophical meandering. Your papers author is only a testament to human imagination not an offer of science itself. it states:

Unfortunately, things are not that simple. What the scientific considerations show is only that our physical universe very likely had a beginning. What, if anything, happened before the beginning of our universe—and even whether or not there was any "before"—is not settled by the scientific evidence. Discoveries in the empirical sciences have not ruled out the possibility that our universe is the product of
events that occurred at a time prior to the beginning of our space-time.


First, I agree that the scientific considerations show the physical universe very likely had a beginning that is my point, I am not interested in going against the current science and find it problematic that atheists (particularly weak ones) would be so interested in doing so instead of following the evidence, because once they do they better put on their strong atheist hats.

Second the bolded and remainder of the quote from your paper has been established - even in multiverse or bubble universe scenarios the BVG theorem holds true.

In view of the extensive applicability and preponderance of evidence for a beginning of the universe and the tenuous nature of attempts to get around that, current science certainly "supports" the reasonable likelihood of a beginning - a point at which the universe came into existence. If you don't see implications for God (your words "support") once the scientific evidence establishes a very probable beginning I can't help you - your simply moving into an irrational strong atheist position that won't accept evidence and will just imagine any possibility otherwise. I can only offer you anecdote and reason such as there were real and valid reasons that atheists for so long and continue to fight a "very probable beginning to the universe".

regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
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