Doctor Scratch wrote:I asked you a set of things. I guess you have no real answer and you're conceding?
Let's examine one at a time.
D.Scratch wrote:Where does he say this?
The title of his website is "Mormon Stories." His profile on Mormon Stories reads: "I am a semi-active, somewhat Universalistic member of the LDS church."
When his "I'm a Mormon" profile was still up, he stated that he was LDS, and that he chose the doctrines and practices that worked best for him. I have no reference for that, because the profile is no longer there.
You said that Dehlin is trying to lead people out of the Church by claiming to be "one of them." The debate here is not whether or not he claims to be LDS--it's pretty clear that he does. What you were arguing, instead, is that he was using his Church membership as a ruse to lure people out of the Church. And you haven't provided any evidence that this is the case.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
You said that Dehlin is trying to lead people out of the Church by claiming to be "one of them." The debate here is not whether or not he claims to be LDS--it's pretty clear that he does. What you were arguing, instead, is that he was using his Church membership as a ruse to lure people out of the Church. And you haven't provided any evidence that this is the case.
To the contrary, he has provided evidence that John Dehlin openly identifies himself as believing in a way that would put off any TBM who was queasy about associating with liberal Mormons. So, it seems that Simon and his "friends" simply don't think that John Dehlin and those like him should be allowed to remain members of the Church. This has little to do with luring others out. It is about kicking out those who are in, but not of the same mindset as Simon and his creepy compadres.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Kishkumen wrote:To the contrary, he has provided evidence that John Dehlin openly identifies himself as believing in a way that would put off any TBM who was queasy about associating with liberal Mormons. So, it seems that Simon and his "friends" simply don't think that John Dehlin and those like him should be allowed to remain members of the Church. This has little to do with luring others out. It is about kicking out those who are in, but not of the same mindset as Simon and his creepy compadres.
Yes it does seem that the title "less active" does not fit JD very well. So much for the days when believe what you want, but keep it to yourself (or get ex'ed) was the norm.
Get with the program, for the times they are a changing .
RockSlider wrote:Yes it does seem that the title "less active" does not fit JD very well. So much for the days when believe what you want, but keep it to yourself (or get ex'ed) was the norm.
Get with the program, for the times they are a changing .
I actually think the problem is that they don't keep quiet.
The Church doesn't like anyone with an outre opinion opening up to anyone about it. This comes from the old days when little scripture study groups gave birth to cult groups, etc.
Problem is, suffering in isolation just doesn't do it for a lot of people. They want to come together to talk about their Mormon experience, whether the LDS Church is ready to handle that or not.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
You said that Dehlin is trying to lead people out of the Church by claiming to be "one of them." The debate here is not whether or not he claims to be LDS--it's pretty clear that he does. What you were arguing, instead, is that he was using his Church membership as a ruse to lure people out of the Church. And you haven't provided any evidence that this is the case.
My name is Stanley or Stan, what's yours?
My claim was that JD was using his membership as a ruse to lead others to believe as he does: that they can pick and choose which doctrines they like and discard the rest. He is doing this by starting a podcast/website, making it very popular, making himself known, and censoring his critics. It's all part of an agenda.
Of course, he is allowed to believe however he wants, but, from what I understand, his beliefs are not representative of what it means to be Mormon.
Kishkumen wrote:So, it seems that Simon and his "friends" simply don't think that John Dehlin and those like him should be allowed to remain members of the Church. This has little to do with luring others out. It is about kicking out those who are in, but not of the same mindset as Simon and his creepy compadres.
I don't know who Simon's friends are, or who Simon is, but I can tell you my thoughts on this.
People like JD are allowed to do whatever they wish. Their faith and membership is between them and the Lord. I personally don't think it's right to lead others down the cherry-picking path, but I also am entitled to my opinion.
Big Stan T. wrote:My claim was that JD was using his membership as a ruse to lead others to believe as he does: that they can pick and choose which doctrines they like and discard the rest. He is doing this by starting a podcast/website, making it very popular, making himself known, and censoring his critics. It's all part of an agenda.
Of course, he is allowed to believe however he wants, but, from what I understand, his beliefs are not representative of what it means to be Mormon.
If the guy openly identifies himself as a semi-active universalistic Mormon, which he does, how many people do you imagine will be misled by this completely ineffective ruse?
I am simply amazed that you could take such a blatant self-advertisement of unorthodox belief and twist it into a ruse in your imagination.
Crazy stuff.
Big Stan T. wrote:People like JD are allowed to do whatever they wish. Their faith and membership is between them and the Lord. I personally don't think it's right to lead others down the cherry-picking path, but I also am entitled to my opinion.
Well, the dirty secret is that everyone is walking down the cherry-picking path. It is part of the package in the human condition. You can't apprehend all. You can't do it all. Choice and exclusion come with the territory.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Kishkumen wrote:If the guy openly identifies himself as a semi-active universalistic Mormon, which he does, how many people do you imagine will be misled by this completely ineffective ruse?
I would say you have a valid point, except his website is called Mormon Stories. That leads people to think it's an LDS-friendly site. It isn't.
Well, the dirty secret is that everyone is walking down the cherry-picking path. It is part of the package in the human condition. You can't apprehend all. You can't do it all. Choice and exclusion come with the territory.
I can sure as hell try, Kishkumen. I wish others would do the same.
static wrote:I would say you have a valid point, except his website is called Mormon Stories. That leads people to think it's an LDS-friendly site. It isn't.
And it is exactly that--Mormons in their own words, and people who are interested in Mormonism in their own words. It was not chosen to deceive. He is open about his beliefs. What more you want from the guy I don't know.
I think you are being extraordinarily picky.
I can sure as hell try, Kishkumen. I wish others would do the same.
When you come up with a way to think multiple thoughts at once, do let me know.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Kishkumen is right. JD is not misleading anyone, he states exactly what he believes (as Static pointed out too) and this is interesting because I'll bet Static knows better JD's beliefs than he does the beliefs of any of his church leaders. How's that for honesty? This is no fifth column exercise.