A Gospel Doctrine Class Not Taught

[_consiglieri]

Well, according to the Book of Mormon, what King Benjamin's people got was his speech, and that alone did the trick for them.

Were they missing anything important, according to you? What else should he have said?

Another trope that frequently crops up in Mormon circles ("crop circles") is that whereas the change of heart happened immediately for King Benjamin's people, for us it is almost always a life long process of incremental improvement.

The only problem is you can't point to any such teaching in the Book of Mormon, where being born again is always something that happens suddenly, in an instant, and is frequently framed in such a way as to demonstrate that physical works have nothing to do with the transformation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_mercyngrace]

Seriously Consiglieri?

All I take away from this is that I need to teach you how to play hearts. It's obvious you just don't know how to play. If you were playing the game right, you could win of your own accord. You just need to know the steps and how to follow them correctly.

;)

Liz,

I love your comment! Obedience isn't the first law of heaven in terms of primacy but in terms of order. It is the first step. We covenant to obey before we even learn the law of the gospel. We obey because without being subject to the law we can't transgress it and discover the need for salvation. It is a telestial law and preparatory in nature.

But Consig can explain it better than I can.

by the way, we should do lunch. I think we live near each other. I'm in the Apex stake.

MnG

[_consiglieri]

I think that you are missing Consig's point. What I got from his lesson (beautifully worded, by the way, Consig....kudos! ), is that obedience is merely the first step in our progress. Liken it to the Law of Moses, and the Higher Law of Christ, which supersedes it. The relationship with Christ is the next level of progress. It doesn't take the place of obedience; it adds to it, and brings more depth and meaning to the obedience already taking place.

Thanks, Liz!

I think Benjamin's speech highlights the anomaly that often the most righteous people are the furthest from God, and that the wicked are the closest. (I know I read that last part as a quote from somebody somewhere--that the wicked person is closest to God.)

The reason appears to be because a wicked person doesn't have to be convinced he needs the help of God to be saved, whereas the righteous think they are already doing everything they need to, and are liable to boast about it.

The word "boast" appears several times in Benjamin's speech, at first where he says he has not served his people in order to boast (2:15, 16), and later after going to lengths to show how worthless his people are in spite of their obedience, asks, "Of what have ye to boast?" (2:24)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

I"d like Consiglieri to compare to Hebrews 6 as well. I mean in a harmonious way. Its one of my faves, overall.

I would be interested in seeing what you come up with in such a comparison, Stem, and perhaps it would be more instructive for you to make the attempt yourself.

For myself, I am trying to get at the meaning of the speech itself, without trying to harmonize it or compare it with writings by other authors not referenced in the text under consideration. I think that in doing so, I am more likely to approximate the meaning intended by the original author.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_RockSlider]

Perhaps along these lines, King Benjamin insinuates himself in the heirarchy between God and his people, using himself as an example of a king who serves his people and works alongside them.

During the "Reign of the Kings" there was no church, what existed was the Holy Order (the King and Priest and a village of patriarchal priesthood lead families, think initiatory). The church which followed, after the fall/end of the Reign of Kings, was a lesser thing (Aaronic in nature) with its only intention (in theory) to lead one to the inner church, to the temple, to the patriarchal priesthood, back to the Holy Order.

I'm somewhat surprised that Consig did not mention that to which all the tents faced, and if it actually had any resemblance to the modern day temple with the required obedience to obtain the ordinances provided from this Masonic foundation.

Was KB a Mason?

[_stemelbow]

I would be interested in seeing what you come up with in such a comparison, Stem, and perhaps it would be more instructive for you to make the attempt yourself.

For myself, I am trying to get at the meaning of the speech itself, without trying to harmonize it or compare it with writings by other authors not referenced in the text under consideration. I think that in doing so, I am more likely to approximate the meaning intended by the original author.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Fine by me. I won't muddy up your attempt to approximate the meaning then.

[_consiglieri]

Obedience isn't the first law of heaven in terms of primacy but in terms of order. It is the first step. We covenant to obey before we even learn the law of the gospel. We obey because without being subject to the law we can't transgress it and discover the need for salvation. It is a telestial law and preparatory in nature.

I have no idea where the Apex State is. I live in the Evergreen State. Is the Apex State above me?

I agree with what you say about the requirement of obedience to a law we cannot keep being the first step in understanding our need for mercy and grace. As you and I have discussed elsewhere, I think that is what is at the heart of the scriptural fact that God has chosen to give us a law we cannot keep, and then commanded us to keep it.

But what do you do when the people actually think they are keeping all the commandments and are doing just fine on their own?

I think that is the problem King Benjamin was addressing.

That and how to play Hearts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

Was KB a Mason?

That would explain the white gloves.

But seriously, thank you for bringing up that aspect of Benjamin's speech, both chronologically (during the reign of the kings) as well as the location at the temple, toward which all the tent doors were facing.

I think there are a lot of layers in this speech and a lot of things going on, both express and implied. My goal was to try to give an overall synopsis of what I saw as one of the main themes--a theme that often gets lost as we try to focus on specific, and oft-repeated, verses in isolation.

I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts about the issue of the tent doors facing the temple, as well as the significance of this speech being given during the reign of the kings, and prior to our reading of a church being established among the Nephites.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

Fine by me. I won't muddy up your attempt to approximate the meaning then.

You never studied.


(A gold plated no-prize for the first person to come up with the move this quote is from.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_mercyngrace]

I have no idea where the Apex State is. I live in the Evergreen State. Is the Apex State above me?

The Apex staKe is just south of Raleigh and you are welcome to travel south and east until you get here. We'll save you a seat at lunch.

But what do you do when the people actually think they are keeping all the commandments and are doing just fine on their own?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think the best thing we can do is to claim the power of sonship for ourselves. Accept the ring and robe and enter the feast. When that happens there's a noticeable change that overtakes a person. Those who are perceptive will see that you are relishing life at a lavish table and partaking of all that the Father hath. They will want to know why they aren't. They will start to seek.

Others will stand outside the feast sulking and slaving away until the reality hits that they are starving themselves to death. And then, hopefully, they start to seek.

That's the process.