Book of Mormon geography

[_lulu]

The fact is there is little evidence of large populations in New York during the time period in question and so there is little reason to believe the Book of Mormon took place there. The reason many believe it took place in MesoAmerica is precisely because of the remains of large civilizations and the populations necessary, in close proximity to one another, to sustain such a story.

This is correct. During the Book of Mormon period, the ONLY area in the New World that had population DENSITY, not overall levels, that would be required for the complex civilization described in the Book of Mormon is in Mesoamerica. That is why educated apologists cling so ferociously to it. They know it's their only hope. The fact is that the Book of Mormon civilization is even more complex and evolved than that which existed in Mesoamerica, but at least it's within spitting distance.

So the MISSISSIPPIANS just wouldn't DO it, EH?

[_Rambo]

This is all interesting but I am still unclear why it can't be in new york area.

I was out golfing with a bunch of Mormons and they were saying that area did have the population densities and that they have found as type of DNA that comes fromt he middle east. Either all these Mormons are lying to each other but they seem to believe this "expert" on the subject. Apparently the stake just had someone come up and talk about all the evidence of the Book of Mormon being in New York area.

I did mention to them that no one in BYU agrees with them and it might be interesting to look into why they don't agree. I also mentioned that they have found no evidience of swords and horses in the New York area. Poor tbm's didn't know anything about that. Then again there is no evidence of horses or swords in mesoamerica either.

[_Tobin]

This is all interesting but I am still unclear why it can't be in new york area.

I was out golfing with a bunch of Mormons and they were saying that area did have the population densities and that they have found as type of DNA that comes fromt he middle east. Either all these Mormons are lying to each other but they seem to believe this "expert" on the subject. Apparently the stake just had someone come up and talk about all the evidence of the Book of Mormon being in New York area.

I did mention to them that no one in BYU agrees with them and it might be interesting to look into why they don't agree. I also mentioned that they have found no evidience of swords and horses in the New York area. Poor tbm's didn't know anything about that. Then again there is no evidence of horses or swords in mesoamerica either.

A few things:
1) The Book of Mormon talks about millions of people involved in combat in both the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations. There would have been slightly less people in the Nephite battles, but each civilization would have left a significant number of ruins from that time period, especially in the Jaredite case where no-one was left alive.
2) Most TBM ideas of where the Book of Mormon took place come from of the mistaken impression that the Hill Cumorah is Mormon Hill in New York. Neither Joseph Smith nor Moroni referred to it as such. And it makes little sense that Moroni would have crafted a box to hold the Book of Mormon if there were a cave in the hill with the rest of the Nephite records. He simply could have left the records there.
3) There is little evidence of DNA from the Middle East in NA. There is an X2 variant, but it is much too old have arrived in the time period in question. An explanation is it arrived from Europe 20,000 years ago and centers around the view that the Clovis people shared similar technics for shaping stone flint implements with people in Europe (the Solutrean Hypothesis). I find this likely since the hunting technology used then was unlike the implements used in Asia and it makes little sense that if people mainly came from Asia they would abandon their hunting weapons and adopt all new ones.
3a) That being said, human mitochondrial genetics is in its infancy and is hardly definitive yet. Some of the problems I have with it is the selection of samples and sample sizes in general. It also is a bit too simplistic a view of human immigration patterns since ancient man was actually quite mobile as demonstrated by the Solutrean Hypothesis and should be used along with other evidence.

Now as far as horse bones and steel (iron) swords, I agree that those are what are important. That is exactly what Mormon archeologists should be looking for. I believe definitive examples will be found eventually and when they are that will dramatically change our view of the Americas since so much has been made out of the lack of examples so far. I don't know why critics of Mormonism pick these two items as proof that the Book of Mormon is false since archeological understanding of history is only as good as the latest find and theories often change, but they do.

[_beastie]

I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.

[_Rambo]

I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.

Damn I can't remember the name of the guy that presented it at my parents stake. I guess he has a website too. I'll see if I can find it. I'm not sure if he was a respected scholar but these bishops seem to think he was a really smart guy and there really convinced. I did mention to them that it would be interesting to see the facts why BYU scholars don't think it would be in New York but that kind of got brushed aside cause they probably didn't want to look at it.

[_Rambo]

I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.

beastie do you know of some readings I can do that talk about how the population in New York was not big enough for the Book of Mormon population?

[_Tobin]

I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.

beastie do you know of some readings I can do that talk about how the population in New York was not big enough for the Book of Mormon population?

Easy. Name one major ruined city found in New York (other than the New York City of the 1970's). Large populations leave remains called cities. Lots of them exist in Mesoamerica. I don't know of a single one found in New York.

[_Darth J]

Easy. Name one major ruined city found in New York (other than the New York City of the 1970's). Large populations leave remains called cities. Lots of them exist in Mesoamerica. I don't know of a single one found in New York.

Therefore, a large population of pre-Columbian Christian Hebrews that lasted for 1,000 years would have left remains called cities.

Why don't you go ahead and post the coordinates for Zarahemla so we can look it up on Google Earth?

[_Tobin]

Easy. Name one major ruined city found in New York (other than the New York City of the 1970's). Large populations leave remains called cities. Lots of them exist in Mesoamerica. I don't know of a single one found in New York.

Therefore, a large population of pre-Columbian Christian Hebrews that lasted for 1,000 years would have left remains called cities.
Why don't you go ahead and post the coordinates for Zarahemla so we can look it up on Google Earth?

The Book of Mormon mentions Jerusalem too. We know where that is and here is a good overlay if you get bored. http://www.openbible.information/geo/overlays/ I guess the Book of Mormon is now true. QED.

[Guest]

I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.

Do yourself a favor beastie. Read a book on Moundbuilders rather than just ignoring my posts while playing cowboy and Indians. Moundbuilders were, settled, agricultural and developed large, sophisticated, complex cities with wide ranging trade connections and monumental architecture.