Book of Mormon geography

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_DarkHelmet
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Chap wrote:
Leaving aside D&C, there is a crucial difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. We still have the texts of the Bible in Hebrew and Greek on which earlier translations such as that of Tyndall and the King James version are based. It is therefore possible to re-translate those texts into modern English, quite independently of the earlier versions. The result is a modern version, not a 'modernisation' of an older translation.

But you cannot do that with the Book of Mormon, since there are no ancient texts to re-translate from (there probably never were, though that is a separate problem). So all you could do would be to try to go over the English text as dictated by Smith, and try to change the diction so as to make it into modern English.


It would actually be pretty easy. They could simply say God commanded them to update the Book of Mormon, and provided them with a Urim and Thummin for that purpose. Thomas S. Monson could spend the next several months in the upper rooms of the temple with the magical glasses..er, I mean urim and Thummin retranslating the Book of Mormon into modern English, and while he is at it, removing the anachronisms and contradictions, and cleaning up the narrative and adding in Mormon theology, like 3 degrees of glory and temple ordinances, and having Nephi recite the Proclamation on the Family. When the translation is complete, god takes the Urim and Thummim back to heaven and we have a new and improved Book of Mormon.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Darth J
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:The Book of Mormon mentions Jerusalem too. We know where that is and here is a good overlay if you get bored. http://www.openbible.information/geo/overlays/ I guess the Book of Mormon is now true. QED.


Probably not very many people dispute that Jerusalem existed in 600 B.C.E. So, anyway, how about Zarahemla? You know, since large populations leave behind remains called cities?

Although.....the Harry Potter books mention London, which is a real city. Are you suggesting that the Book of Mormon and Harry Potter are on equal ontological footing?
_Brackite
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Brackite »

Tobin wrote: A few things:
1) The Book of Mormon talks about millions of people involved in combat in both the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations. There would have been slightly less people in the Nephite battles, but each civilization would have left a significant number of ruins from that time period, especially in the Jaredite case where no-one was left alive.
2) Most TBM ideas of where the Book of Mormon took place come from of the mistaken impression that the Hill Cumorah is Mormon Hill in New York. Neither Joseph Smith nor Moroni referred to it as such. And it makes little sense that Moroni would have crafted a box to hold the Book of Mormon if there were a cave in the hill with the rest of the Nephite records. He simply could have left the records there.
3) There is little evidence of DNA from the Middle East in NA. There is an X2 variant, but it is much too old have arrived in the time period in question. An explanation is it arrived from Europe 20,000 years ago and centers around the view that the Clovis people shared similar technics for shaping stone flint implements with people in Europe (the Solutrean Hypothesis). I find this likely since the hunting technology used then was unlike the implements used in Asia and it makes little sense that if people mainly came from Asia they would abandon their hunting weapons and adopt all new ones.
3a) That being said, human mitochondrial genetics is in its infancy and is hardly definitive yet. Some of the problems I have with it is the selection of samples and sample sizes in general. It also is a bit too simplistic a view of human immigration patterns since ancient man was actually quite mobile as demonstrated by the Solutrean Hypothesis and should be used along with other evidence.

Now as far as horse bones and steel (iron) swords, I agree that those are what are important. That is exactly what Mormon archeologists should be looking for. I believe definitive examples will be found eventually and when they are that will dramatically change our view of the Americas since so much has been made out of the lack of examples so far. I don't know why critics of Mormonism pick these two items as proof that the Book of Mormon is false since archeological understanding of history is only as good as the latest find and theories often change, but they do.


The Following is From Simon Southerton:

The mitochondrial (maternal) DNA lineages have now been published for 1,164 native Mesoamericans from 30 populations ranging from Central Mexico down to Cost Rica. ...
Only eleven Mesoamericans possessed a mtDNA lineage that didn’t originate in Asia. Of the eleven non-Asian lineages, three were African L lineages, and three were not fully characterised.

The remaining five lineages included two H lineages, one U, one J and one T lineage. These lineages are found in European populations in the following frequencies: lineage H (54%), lineage U (16%), lineage J (10%) and lineage T (8%). By comparing these 5 lineages to the thousands of mtDNA sequences in global databases, exact matches were found for the U and T lineages among individuals from Western Europe, namely Spain, Portugal and Poland. Meanwhile, the most abundant female lineages in Middle Eastern populations are lineage K (32%) followed by lineage H (26%). Given that African lineages were detected and the exact matches with Portuguese lineages, it looks very likely that these “other” lineages originated from post Columbus admixture with African and European colonists. Similar levels of admixture have been observed in several other Native American populations, particularly in eastern North America, which was impacted more heavily after first contact.

Scientists are also able to determine when this admixture occurred. That is, they can estimate approximately how many years ago the European or African DNA entered a Native American’s family tree. They do this using high throughput DNA technology to track the inheritance of nuclear DNA markers. ...





Were there "others" in the Promised land among the Nephites according to the Book of Mormon???
Let Us Go to 1st Nephi Chapter 18, Verse 25:

1 Nephi 18:25:

[25] And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.




If there were "others" within the Promised Land when Lehi and his family first arrived in the Promised Land, why didn't Nephi mentioned about them in this Passage???



Let Us Now Go to Jacob Chapter Seven, verse 26:

Jacob 7:26:

[26] And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.



We can see by comparing 1st Nephi Chapter 18, verse 25 with Jacob Chapter Seven, verse 26 that there were Not "others" in the Promised land when Lehi and his family first arrived there. The Prophet Jacob describes the people of Nephi as "being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem" towards the end of his life. The Prophet Jacob then goes on describing that the people of Nephi, his people, were "hated of our brethren," which means that all of the Lamanites were their fellow Israelite brethren. We must conclude in light of the Passages of 1st Nephi Chapter 18, verse 25 with Jacob Chapter Seven, verse 26 that the Nephites were Not among "others" within the Promised land.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Morley
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Morley »

lulu wrote:
beastie wrote:I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.
Do yourself a favor beastie. Read a book on Moundbuilders rather than just ignoring my posts while playing cowboy and Indians. Moundbuilders were, settled, agricultural and developed large, sophisticated, complex cities with wide ranging trade connections and monumental architecture.


If you're serious, please make your case, lulu.
_MCB
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _MCB »

Do yourself a favor beastie. Read a book on Moundbuilders rather than just ignoring my posts while playing cowboy and Indians. Moundbuilders were, settled, agricultural and developed large, sophisticated, complex cities with wide ranging trade connections and monumental architecture.


Settle down, Lulu. Beastie has read or is reading my refutation of that. The time-line doesn't fit. Just as tight as her refutation of meso-America. I hope.
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I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

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_Tobin
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Tobin »

Brackite wrote:
Tobin wrote:3a) That being said, human mitochondrial genetics is in its infancy and is hardly definitive yet. Some of the problems I have with it is the selection of samples and sample sizes in general. It also is a bit too simplistic a view of human immigration patterns since ancient man was actually quite mobile as demonstrated by the Solutrean Hypothesis and should be used along with other evidence.
See the underlined part?
The mitochondrial (maternal) DNA lineages have now been published for 1,164 native Mesoamericans from 30 populations ranging from Central Mexico down to Cost Rica. ...
Now a couple of points.
1) Why were these populations deemed representative of all ancient American populations?
2) Why weren't other populations in America that carry the X2 also tested? I would point to that as a clear sign of bias in the study.
3) How does any of this answer the question of technology differences between ancient American and ancient Asian peoples and the similarity they have instead with ancient Europeans?
4) Do you really consider a narrow sample 1000 individuals out of population of almost one billion people in the Americas significant? The reason I state this is the study seems contrived and the results demonstrate that since populations that should have different backgrounds are excluded. It appears they are looking for a result and looking in places they expect to find the result. A better approach would be to test a large sample of people with diverse backgrounds and compare the populations explaining the origins of the American populations tested. That was not done and is another sign of bias.
4a) The reason I state this is I have a native American ancestory and an European ancestory and appear caucasian. I would have been excluded from this study because I appear caucasian.
Brackite wrote:Were there "others" in the Promised land among the Nephites according to the Book of Mormon???
Let Us Go to 1st Nephi Chapter 18, Verse 25:
1 Nephi 18:25:
[25] And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

If there were "others" within the Promised Land when Lehi and his family first arrived in the Promised Land, why didn't Nephi mentioned about them in this Passage???
Why should we use that? Are you claiming that the Nephites had airplanes and spy satellites and could see everyone that existed anywhere on the continent?
Brackite wrote:
Jacob 7:26: [26] And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.
We can see by comparing 1st Nephi Chapter 18, verse 25 with Jacob Chapter Seven, verse 26 that there were Not "others" in the Promised land when Lehi and his family first arrived there. The Prophet Jacob describes the people of Nephi as "being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem" towards the end of his life. The Prophet Jacob then goes on describing that the people of Nephi, his people, were "hated of our brethren," which means that all of the Lamanites were their fellow Israelite brethren. We must conclude in light of the Passages of 1st Nephi Chapter 18, verse 25 with Jacob Chapter Seven, verse 26 that the Nephites were Not among "others" within the Promised land.
Same fallacy, different citation.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Darth J
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:Are you claiming that the Nephites had airplanes and spy satellites and could see everyone that existed anywhere on the continent?


Look, Tobin, I don't want to get into a whole epistemology thing here, but if the Lehites were diluting their DNA by interbreeding with a larger native populace, then the Lehites probably would have been aware of the existence of all these other people they were making babies with.
_Tobin
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Tobin »

Darth J wrote:
Tobin wrote:Are you claiming that the Nephites had airplanes and spy satellites and could see everyone that existed anywhere on the continent?
Look, Tobin, I don't want to get into a whole epistemology thing here, but if the Lehites were diluting their DNA by interbreeding with a larger native populace, then the Lehites probably would have been aware of the existence of all these other people they were making babies with.
As you should know, this part of the Book of Mormon is was written during the small Nephite colony stage. It covered a very small population over a very small geographic region. You are trying to generalize this small Nephite colony and pretend it applies to the fully developed Nephite civilization with all its complicated interactions with many different people. This is just simply not the case.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Darth J
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:As you should know, this part of the Book of Mormon is was written during the small Nephite colony stage. It covered a very small population over a very small geographic region. You are trying to generalize this small Nephite colony and pretend it applies to the fully developed Nephite civilization with all its complicated interactions with many different people. This is just simply not the case.


What's your favorite part of the Book of Mormon that talks about this native populace they were interbreeding with?

Do you have maybe a chapter and verse you can cite?
_lulu
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _lulu »

beastie wrote:I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.
lulu wrote:Do yourself a favor beastie. Read a book on Moundbuilders rather than just ignoring my posts while playing cowboy and Indians. Moundbuilders were, settled, agricultural and developed large, sophisticated, complex cities with wide ranging trade connections and monumental architecture.
Morley wrote:If you're serious, please make your case, lulu.
Seriously, Morely, you've never heard of Moundbuilders? If not, I'll do my best to prepare a primer.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
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