Book of Mormon geography

[_lulu]

He was nincompoop that made stuff up and he was a nincompoop that didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

Just the sorta guy I'd turn my 14 year. old daughter over too and then follow him west.

[_Themis]

Beastie is right. The Book of Mormon fits perfectly a 19th century fiction. The Book of Abraham even just as well, and we have the proof that Joseph was making it up with the equivalent of the Gold plates. So many other things just fit Joseph making it up such that one should question there spiritual interpretations as being correct.

[_Darth J]

The Book of Mormon was first published in: 1830

The year it is right now: 2012

2012
-1830
182

Congratulations. You can do simple math and that is about all you've demonstrated.

I appreciate your admission that it is not hyperbole that we have had 182 years for a single artifact or location from the Book of Mormon to be found.

[_Darth J]

And even if it is not identified, which I will believe it never will be, I really doubt that those who do believe in Mormonism will leave.

First, you are engaging in hyperbole again. 182 years of significant study of the region in question has never occurred. Second, how recently were the lost and previously unknown Olmec cities found? Third, how recently were we even able to read any of the Mayan script?

None of this is relevant to the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is not about Olmecs or Mayans. It is about Lehites and Jaredites.

But you're right, there hasn't been any significant study of Mesoamerica going on for very long. All those conquistadors who were down in Mesoamerica 200 years before Joseph Smith was born probably didn't notice the Aztec civilization or any of that other stuff down there. And I'm sure Joseph Smith didn't have access to a book called Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan during his lifetime.

I think your view is a naïve understanding of the history of discovery in Mesoamerica and doesn't reflect the many discoveries recently in the area. If it did, you'd understand that the view of the Mesoamerican civilizations is dramatically evolving now and will continue to do so into the future.

Yes, because I explicitly said there will be no further developments in the world's understanding of Mesoamerican civilizations, right?

Or is it more like I said the many discoveries recently in the area are making it increasingly unlikely that the Book of Mormon narrative ever actually happened in the real world?

Personally, I'll let archeology discover what it is going to discover and not impose my preconceptions upon it.

For example, the preconception that the Book of Mormon narrative is a true story that happened somewhere in Mesoamerica.

I've found that people that claim things are impossible have a severe lack of imagination or understanding of our own limited knowledge of science and the real world around us.

"There is no evidence to support X, and substantial evidence against X" is not equivalent to "X is impossible." It just means X did not happen.

You know, I think the safe bet is to believe any claim at all that people make, no matter how ludicrous, because our limited knowledge of science and the real world cannot conclusively rule out absolutely anything from being true.

[_Tobin]

But you're right, there hasn't been any significant study of Mesoamerica going on for very long. All those conquistadors who were down in Mesoamerica 200 years before Joseph Smith was born probably didn't notice the Aztec civilization or any of that other stuff down there. And I'm sure Joseph Smith didn't have access to a book called Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan during his lifetime.

I think that is the first time I've ever seen the conquistadors portrayed as serious archeologists and Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan as indepth archeological study and analysis of ancient American ruins. I wonder what your next assertion will be? Perhaps that Nazi Germany was dedicated to conserving Jewish History or that Impressionism was an attempt to record landscapes for future generations.

[_Darth J]

But you're right, there hasn't been any significant study of Mesoamerica going on for very long. All those conquistadors who were down in Mesoamerica 200 years before Joseph Smith was born probably didn't notice the Aztec civilization or any of that other stuff down there. And I'm sure Joseph Smith didn't have access to a book called Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan during his lifetime.

I think that is the first time I've ever seen the conquistadors portrayed as serious archeologists and Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan as indepth archeological study and analysis of ancient American ruins. I wonder what your next assertion will be? Perhaps that Nazi Germany was dedicated to conserving Jewish History or that Impressionism was an attempt to record landscapes for future generations.

I didn't say that the conquistadors were serious archaeologists. I said "significant study." The Portugese and the Spaniards kept records of what they observed, and their records of what they observed do not support the claim that the Book of Mormon tells a true story. Serious archaeology from that time forward has not made the Book of Mormon claims more likely. It has made them less likely.

Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan was impressive enough for early Mormons to assert that the ruins down there corroborated the Book of Mormon, despite no factual basis for doing so. You're only following that same pattern, without one single piece of evidence to substantiate your claim that the Book of Mormon story happened in Mesoamerica---or anywhere else in the world.

[_Tobin]

I didn't say that the conquistadors were serious archaeologists. I said "significant study." The Portugese and the Spaniards kept records of what they observed, and their records of what they observed do not support the claim that the Book of Mormon tells a true story. Serious archaeology from that time forward has not made the Book of Mormon claims more likely. It has made them less likely.

What were the conquistadors doing to the native Americans at the time they were supposedly ponderously and meticulously perserving a record of their culture? They were wiping them out, destroying their culture, robbing, raping, and enslaving them. Oh, and forcing them to worship Christianity and to learn Spanish. I wonder what kind of picture we would have if we had relied on the Nazis impressions of the Jews and their culture and civilization?

Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan was impressive enough for early Mormons to assert that the ruins down there corroborated the Book of Mormon, despite no factual basis for doing so. You're only following that same pattern, without one single piece of evidence to substantiate your claim that the Book of Mormon story happened in Mesoamerica---or anywhere else in the world.

Great. We have a jungle cruise book with pictures. Mind you they didn't have cameras at the time or it would have been all pictures.

These are your sources of 182 years of careful study of ancient American civilization? No wonder you find no evidence of the Book of Mormon. I seriously question your judgement about what sources you rely on to evaluate a civilization that existed almost 1700 years ago. You seem to have some odd views of what is legitimate research and scholarship. You also seem to believe that civilizations closer to our time period accurately reflect older civilizations. Based on that, I guess you think that studying Muslim civilizations that dominate the Middle East now are a good way to understand ancient Hebrew/Hittite/Egyptian civilizations that were there before.

[_Buffalo]

"That is one of the beautiful things about Mormonism. It has always been proven true in the studies that have not been written, research that has not been conducted and archeological evidence that has not been dug." - John Larsen

[_Tobin]

"That is one of the beautiful things about Mormonism. It has always been proven true in the studies that have not been written, research that has not been conducted and archeological evidence that has not been dug." - John Larsen

That is one of the beautiful things about Christianity. It has always been proven true in the studies that have not been written, research that has not been conducted and archeological evidence that has not been dug. - Tobin

What a bunch of non sequitur tripe! You want proof. You can talk to God today to get it. The problem is that most of you won't humble yourselves to the point to receive an answer. In the end, it won't matter. You'll have your proof in time when you stand before God and are shown all these things.

[_Chap]

"That is one of the beautiful things about Mormonism. It has always been proven true in the studies that have not been written, research that has not been conducted and archeological evidence that has not been dug." - John Larsen

That is one of the beautiful things about Christianity. It has always been proven true in the studies that have not been written, research that has not been conducted and archeological evidence that has not been dug. - Tobin

What a bunch of non sequitur tripe! You want proof. You can talk to God today to get it. The problem is that most of you won't humble yourselves to the point to receive an answer. In the end, it won't matter. You'll have your proof in time when you stand before God and are shown all these things.

See? Tobin on the other hand is such a humble guy. That's why 'God' talks to him, and not to the rest of us. One day we'll all see that, and then we'll be sorry.