Shocked by Polygamy

[_Themis]

As was I, but at some point you realize that the claims are fanciful. Without some kind of evidence that God really exists and could make any of this possible, I see no reason to be Mormon. And I assert that is the real reason people leave.

For most lack of evidence is not enough. It's evidence against that tells us Joseph made it up.

Polygamy is just an excuse. After all, who cares what someone else is or did or didn't do.

What someone does tells us about them and whether they can be trusted or believed.

What does that have to do with God appearing to you and telling you the truth? Which is the only basis in which to believe any of it.

Your latest posts seem to suggest that a being appeared. Sounds like you are not certain it was God.

[_ludwigm]

Warren Jeffs trial ...
Mom got really mad, and insisted that Joseph did not have multiple wives. And, according to her, none of Brigham Young's wives were young, or coerced into marriage, or married while their husbands were on missions, either. She said she was taught that the reason Brigham Young started polygamy was because there were lots of widows who needed supporting after the pioneers crossed the plains.

This is the standard "superstition" of Hungarian members. The lots of widows.
None of them - as far as I know - knows about Warren Jeffs.

I think I never will meet with any member who learned the details - because they have already left...

[_jskains]

That is the arrogance I get so tired of, the whole "you don't agree with my interpretation so you have not learned what I have learned" routine.

You have no clue what I have or have not learned. All you know is I disagree with your conclusions.

JMS

[_Buffalo]

That is the arrogance I get so tired of, the whole "you don't agree with my interpretation so you have not learned what I have learned" routine.

You have no clue what I have or have not learned. All you know is I disagree with your conclusions.

JMS

Apparently you know very little about polygamy.

[_Buffalo]

There is still such a thing as adultery among polygamists, and taking other men's wives is adultery. King David got into trouble over that.

So because King David engaged in adultery, that proves there isn't a God, and that Judaism and Christianity and the Bible are false?

No. Why would you think I was going there?

The point is even by an Old Testament standard, Joseph was a serial adulterer.

[_Buffalo]

So you "expirenced God" is that the same as he apeared to you? I mean God in the flesh or whatever, right there in front of you?

No, a being appeared to two of us in a locked apartment in a skyscraper and scared the crap out of us and told us to knock off what we were doing. Not an experience I ever wish to repeat. So, yeah - I do believe there is a God. Still trying to figure out what he's all about though and trying to reform my life to have another bite at the apple (with hopefully different results).

^ Keeping in mind this is someone who has taken mind-altering drugs.

Anyway, did you ask to shake his hand? That's the real test.

[_Tobin]

There is still such a thing as adultery among polygamists, and taking other men's wives is adultery. King David got into trouble over that.

So because King David engaged in adultery, that proves there isn't a God, and that Judaism and Christianity and the Bible are false?

No. Why would you think I was going there?
The point is even by an Old Testament standard, Joseph was a serial adulterer.

It must be nice to be able to make baseless charges like that. Why don't you do a coup de grace on Christianity too and label Jesus Christ a magician, con-man, and rebel? While you are at it, do you have any piffy comments about Muhammad?

[_Tobin]

Anyway, did you ask to shake his hand? That's the real test.

Why? I haven't shook your hand. Are you not real?

[_Sophocles]

Josh, perhaps you could elaborate on what aspects of polygamy were discussed in your Gospel Doctrine class? I'm guessing that they are not the same aspects that others are finding shocking, which would explain the apparent disconnect you describe in the OP.

That is the arrogance I get so tired of, the whole "you don't agree with my interpretation so you have not learned what I have learned" routine.

You have no clue what I have or have not learned. All you know is I disagree with your conclusions.

Josh, you are exactly right. I don't know what you have or have not learned. All I know is that you have reached different conclusions than most of the rest of us who have looked into the issue. That's why I asked you what you have learned.

How arrogant of me, admitting my ignorance about your knowledge and beliefs and asking you to please elaborate.

[_Sophocles]

Yet I was shocked to learn the details of Joseph Smith's personal involvement in polygamous relationships. That was a significant factor in my parting ways with the church.

????

What? Did you just suppose the BY invented it? I didn't leave the Church over polygamy. Who cares?!? Abraham was a polygamist. Muslims to this day are polygamists. It's not a new concept.

As I thoroughly explained, I am well aware that polygamy is not a new concept. I never said I thought BY invented it. I said I was shocked to learn the details regarding Smith's personal involvement in it.

As an active, believing Latter-day Saint, I understood that Joseph Smith received the revelation establishing polygamy. I also understood that the purpose of polygamy as explained in Jacob was to "raise up seed" and that Joseph did not father any children with anyone but Emma. This led me to conclude that while Joseph was sealed to other women, he did not consummate any of those marriages. Those sealings may have been for dynastic purposes I did not fully understand or to allow women who had no hopes of attracting a worthy priesthood holder a chance to inherit the CK.

I developed my own theories about why the Lord might reveal the principle to Smith, but not allow him to practice it in the flesh. I thought that it was a wise move not to have the prophet of the Restoration receive a revelation that allowed him to have multiple sex partners. Even if legitimate, it appeared too convenient, too self-serving. I believed this was a quintessential example of the oft-taught principle of "avoiding even the appearance of evil."

The details which I found shocking are pretty much those that Analytics described in his post--that Smith did have sex with his plural wives, that he lied about it, that he did so without Emma's knowledge or consent, that he married other men's wives without their knowledge or consent, etc. All of that behavior makes Joseph look less like a true prophet of the restored gospel, and much more like every other cult leader throughout history who, despite whatever else they teach and whatever good they might do, always seem to end up having sex with their followers.