A Gospel Doctrine Class Not Taught

[_Yoda]

Hey, we could do lunch! Isn't Apex Stake in Raleigh?

I'm in the High Point Stake, which is about an hour and a half away. LOL

Yes! Very near anyway - the stake building is the one that shares a parking lot with the temple on hwy 55.

Another idea... if you have kids we could meet at the zoo, my kids have been begging to go and that's fairly close to you, isn't it?

Yes, it is! My son would LOVE to go to the zoo again. We haven't been in probably a year. LOL

PM me and we can probably work something out. It may be a couple of weeks, though. My work schedule right now is a little insane. I would love to do it, though! Consig, you are welcome to join us at the Ashboro Zoo!

My father in law is the Raleigh temple president! We were at the meeting where Richard G. Scott spoke about a year ago. This is wild. We might have been at the same meeting and not known it. LOL

[_mercyngrace]

Yes, it is! My son would LOVE to go to the zoo again. We haven't been in probably a year. LOL

PM me and we can probably work something out. It may be a couple of weeks, though. My work schedule right now is a little insane. I would love to do it, though! Consig, you are welcome to join us at the Ashboro Zoo!

My father in law is the Raleigh temple president! We were at the meeting where Richard G. Scott spoke about a year ago. This is wild. We might have been at the same meeting and not known it. LOL

Awesome! I sent contact information!

We're living parallel lives, Liz. My uncle was the first TP in South Carolina. And my parents have worked off and on, health dependent, at the Raleigh temple since it opened.

We weren't at the same meeting though, I blew that off.

A girl can only handle so much church, even if an apostle is in town... LOL.

[_consiglieri]

PM me and we can probably work something out. It may be a couple of weeks, though. My work schedule right now is a little insane. I would love to do it, though! Consig, you are welcome to join us at the Ashboro Zoo!

Consiglieri.

Bringing people together since 1978.

I would love to go to the zoo with you two but I won't be able to make it.




















They're cleaning my cage.

[_consiglieri]

An excellent essay! Thanks for sharing.

Your servant, sir.

[_consiglieri]

In case anybody is interested, I am in the process of compiling various thoughts on the Book of Mormon in manuscript form, consisting of papers I have written over the years, both published and unpublished (mostly unpublished ), together with insights I have picked up over the years from others as well as myself, and ongoing insights as I read through the Book of Mormon again this year for Sunday school. (For example, many of the thoughts in this little essay are those that have presented themselves to me on my current reading of King Benjamin's speech. I remain impressed by how much the Book of Mormon yields to careful reading, especially when I try to allow the text to speak for itself.)

It is something that has been weighing on me with greater frequency, the idea of actually writing down stuff. (The Mormon in me would say I have been impressed by the Spirit to do this. The Mormon in ldsfaqs would probably say differently.)

Anyway, it is sometimes hard going to keep it up (I am currently at 334 pages) as I think the final result will be of little interest to anyone, but I think that the added impetus of posting my thoughts here on a regular basis may help with my motivation to see the project through.

An extra plus is that posters respond to what I have written and I find myself often incorporating their insights as well as the insights their comments provoke from me.

Thanks, everybody, for your contributions . . . and your patience.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_why me]

This is how we retain a remission of our sins, by acting as God acts toward those less fortunate. “And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, . . . “ (4:26)

This is a very different pattern than in contemporary Mormonism. In fact, it could be suggested that Mormons are in the position of King Benjamin’s people before the speech, and that as long as they believe keeping God’s commandments is the key to salvation, they are being thwarted in asking God for mercy and entering into the new relationship as his children which is the only true way to eternal life.

___________________

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Like most political speeches, King Benjamin's speech was also rhetorical, giving his subjects an outline to follow as believers in god. But also knowing that not everyone would take the speech to heart. Also, King Benjamin gave a lot of great advice in his speech and he did hightlight his rule. This would have played up his son and the support that he needed to be ruler.

For Mormons, the key to salvation is found in attempting to keep the commandments and not in keeping the commandments. No one is perfect, not even King Benjamin was perfect. And most Mormons understand this. So, they also know about god's mercy and are depended on it. However, mercy also comes in the act of trying to live the commandments and not in just disobeying the commandments without concern because there is always god's mercy.

Mosiah 4:10

[_moksha]

Now Benjamin launches into part 2 of his speech, which deals with how to maintain this salvation his people have just received.

Interestingly, there is not a lot of focus on keeping the commandments of God here. Instead, it focuses on the new relationship with have with God as his children. God has heard our cry for mercy and has abundantly answered the plea. God now wants us to treat others of lesser status to us in the same way God has acted.

We now take God’s place in the scheme of things, being his sons and daughters, and in order to maintain our status in this heavenly family, we must act toward others as God has acted toward us.

First part of King Benjamin's speech corresponds with the first part of the Great Commandments, which is to love God. The second part corresponds to the second of the Great Commandments which is to love others.

And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil.” (4:14)

And so Benjamin says we are to give to beggars whenever they ask. We are not to judge the beggar and say he has brought his situation upon himself (4:17). Benjamin makes the equation clear, “For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same being, even God, for all the substance we have . . . ? And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you.” (4:19-20)

(By the way, it is almost always the case that when Mormons discuss this passage, they will immediately look for ways to avoid its obvious meaning, and try to say it is okay to not give money to beggars because they are going to use it in wrong ways. This runs afoul not only of the plain meaning of the text, but also the meta message being delivered by Mosiah—it is not for us to judge but to be merciful when mercy is requested. If a person chooses to abuse that mercy, that is on them. And we abuse God’s mercy if we refuse to give mercy to others.)

“And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God . . .?” (4:22)

The argument you encountered was to be expected. The Mormon brand of Christian thought has been co-opted by the forces of economic and social conservatism. The economic conservatism seeks to make the hoarding of golden shekels a virtue and the social conservatism suggests that those others have less merit than ourselves. Both of these messages are antithetical to the core principles of Christianity.

[_consiglieri]

The argument you encountered was to be expected. The Mormon brand of Christian thought has been co-opted by the forces of economic and social conservatism. The economic conservatism seeks to make the hoarding of golden shekels a virtue and the social conservatism suggests that those others have less merit than ourselves. Both of these messages are antithetical to the core principles of Christianity.

Well put, my penguin friend.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

Like most political speeches, King Benjamin's speech was also rhetorical, giving his subjects an outline to follow as believers in god. But also knowing that not everyone would take the speech to heart.

But everybody did take it to heart, and experienced a change of heart.

However, mercy also comes in the act of trying to live the commandments and not in just disobeying the commandments without concern because there is always god's mercy.

An obvious strawman.

Nobody has been saying anything about disobeying the commandments without concern.

The first part is to define "commandments," which Benjamin stresses have to do with how we treat others, and especially those who are less fortunate than we or who are under our authority in some sense. (Not how many piercings we have or where, or what our sexual orientation may be.)

Second, God's mercy has no place in a scheme where commandments are kept.

God's mercy comes into play only where commandments are not kept.

That is why, even though God could have given us a law we could keep, the scriptures seem to go out of their way to say that God chose to give us a law none of us could obey. (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:10)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri