Shocked by Polygamy

[_Buffalo]

It must be nice to be able to make baseless charges like that. Why don't you do a coup de grace on Christianity too and label Jesus Christ a magician, con-man, and rebel? While you are at it, do you have any piffy comments about Muhammad?

It's much easier to dismantle Joseph Smith. So easy a buffalo could do it!

Why do you think it's baseless? Do you think there was no concept of adultery in the Old Testament?

[_Buffalo]

Anyway, did you ask to shake his hand? That's the real test.

Why? I haven't shook your hand. Are you not real?

http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 9?lang=eng

1 There are two kinds of beings in aheaven, namely: bAngels, who are cresurrected personages, having dbodies of flesh and bones—

2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not aflesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the aspirits of bjust men made cperfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the aorder of heaven for a just man to bdeceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the adevil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not bfeel anything; you may therefore detect him.

9 These are three grand akeys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

[_just me]

What? Did you just suppose the BY invented it? I didn't leave the Church over polygamy. Who cares?!? Abraham was a polygamist. Muslims to this day are polygamists. It's not a new concept.

As I thoroughly explained, I am well aware that polygamy is not a new concept. I never said I thought BY invented it. I said I was shocked to learn the details regarding Smith's personal involvement in it.

As an active, believing Latter-day Saint, I understood that Joseph Smith received the revelation establishing polygamy. I also understood that the purpose of polygamy as explained in Jacob was to "raise up seed" and that Joseph did not father any children with anyone but Emma. This led me to conclude that while Joseph was sealed to other women, he did not consummate any of those marriages. Those sealings may have been for dynastic purposes I did not fully understand or to allow women who had no hopes of attracting a worthy priesthood holder a chance to inherit the CK.

I developed my own theories about why the Lord might reveal the principle to Smith, but not allow him to practice it in the flesh. I thought that it was a wise move not to have the prophet of the Restoration receive a revelation that allowed him to have multiple sex partners. Even if legitimate, it appeared too convenient, too self-serving. I believed this was a quintessential example of the oft-taught principle of "avoiding even the appearance of evil."

The details which I found shocking are pretty much those that Analytics described in his post--that Smith did have sex with his plural wives, that he lied about it, that he did so without Emma's knowledge or consent, that he married other men's wives without their knowledge or consent, etc. All of that behavior makes Joseph look less like a true prophet of the restored gospel, and much more like every other cult leader throughout history who, despite whatever else they teach and whatever good they might do, always seem to end up having sex with their followers.

This is a very good post.

[_Tobin]

...

So, is that a 'no, you don't exist'? And just a FYI - a baseless charge is an accusation made without any basis in fact. Are you bearing false witness? That is definitely a sin in the Old Testament.

[_just me]

...

So, is that a 'no, you don't exist'? And just a FYI - a baseless charge is an accusation made without any basis in fact. Are you bearing false witness? That is definitely a sin in the Old Testament.

So is eating shellfish.

[_Tobin]

The details which I found shocking are pretty much those that Analytics described in his post--that Smith did have sex with his plural wives, that he lied about it, that he did so without Emma's knowledge or consent, that he married other men's wives without their knowledge or consent, etc. All of that behavior makes Joseph look less like a true prophet of the restored gospel, and much more like every other cult leader throughout history who, despite whatever else they teach and whatever good they might do, always seem to end up having sex with their followers.

1) There is no evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with other men's wives. The fact a believing LDS would accept that non-sense is disturbing in itself.
2) Yes, he was sealed to a number of women who happened to be married. He was also sealed to a number of married women after he died. It was viewed as a way to ensure they received salvation (rightly or wrongly).
3) Of course the purpose of polygamy was to have sex and have children in the convenant. He would have married certain single women and had children with them.

And none of this has anything to do with whether or not God told you that Mormonism was true or not. Moroni's promise is about speaking with God yourself and receiving a witness from God that it was true. The fact is you never saw, spoke with and received that witness from God is why you left Mormonism. Your foundation wasn't built upon the rock of God, but upon sand.

[_jskains]

What Joseph Smith may or may have not done has no baring on the truthfulness of the Church. I believe in the product itself, the LDS Church, not that Joseph Smith is some literal version of Christ Himself.

Heck, for all one knows, if Joseph Smith DID do some horrible things, that might be why God did not do some miracle to save him from the mob. Who knows?

Too many of you have such a black/white view of the world.

JMS

[_Buffalo]

...

So, is that a 'no, you don't exist'? And just a FYI - a baseless charge is an accusation made without any basis in fact. Are you bearing false witness? That is definitely a sin in the Old Testament.

I'm asking you if you asked the apparition in your apartment to shake your hand. That's the test laid out on the D&C.

[_Buffalo]

1) There is no evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with other men's wives. The fact a believing LDS would accept that non-sense is disturbing in itself.
2) Yes, he was sealed to a number of women who happened to be married. He was also sealed to a number of married women after he died. It was viewed as a way to ensure they received salvation (rightly or wrongly).
3) Of course the purpose of polygamy was to have sex and have children in the convenant. He would have married certain single women and had children with them.

And none of this has anything to do with whether or not God told you that Mormonism was true or not. Moroni's promise is about speaking with God yourself and receiving a witness from God that it was true. The fact is you never saw, spoke with and received that witness from God is why you left Mormonism. Your foundation wasn't built upon the rock of God, but upon sand.

There is quite good evidence that Smith slept with all of his wives, including those already married.

[_Buffalo]

What Joseph Smith may or may have not done has no baring on the truthfulness of the Church. I believe in the product itself, the LDS Church, not that Joseph Smith is some literal version of Christ Himself.

Heck, for all one knows, if Joseph Smith DID do some horrible things, that might be why God did not do some miracle to save him from the mob. Who knows?

Too many of you have such a black/white view of the world.

JMS

Jskains apparently doesn't believe Jesus.

Matthew 7:15-20

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.