Tobin wrote:[Again, just mischaracterizing what was said. These dynastic marriages were secret and it was believed by Sylvia that in the eternities that Josphine was Joseph Smith's daughter. She wasn't his biological daughter and there is absolutely NO proof of that what-so-ever.
And to your next point, Eliza R. Snow was NOT married to anyone but the prophet and later to BY after Joseph Smith's death.
If I was being too subtle, the reason Sylvia had reason to think Josephine was Smith's daughter was because she screwed Smith.
You missed my point on Eliza, too. The point is, from someone who knows, anyone who thinks either Joseph or Brigham weren't boinking their wives is naïve. She knew the truth.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women after he died. This isn't well known, but it happened. It was part of the dynastic marriage/sealing belief/tradition and if you got sealed the the prophet you were ensured salvation. This practice didn't end till the 1930's, so as you can imagine - there are a lot.
The practice of sealing worked like this: Since the end was nigh, you were to seal together in the temple everyone in your family you could remember. After that was done, the patriarch of the family was then sealed, as part of the family, to the prophet or a member of the First Presidency of the church, and those people were sealed by proxy to Joseph Smith.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women after he died. This isn't well known, but it happened. It was part of the dynastic marriage/sealing belief/tradition and if you got sealed the the prophet you were ensured salvation. This practice didn't end till the 1930's, so as you can imagine - there are a lot.
The practice of sealing worked like this: Since the end was nigh, you were to seal together in the temple everyone in your family you could remember. After that was done, the patriarch of the family was then sealed, as part of the family, to the prophet or a member of the First Presidency of the church, and those people were sealed by proxy to Joseph Smith.
He also married at least 33 women in his lifetime, and prima facie evidence says he screwed every last one of them.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
That's interesting because all the tests I've heard of were negative. Who's left to test? I thought all the most likely candidates had been tested.
I really don't know other than I have heard it from a couple places. I realize how tenuous that is and would not be bothered if you reject it out of hand. As I said I do not think the problems with Joseph Smith and polygamy rest on evidence of children or sex with his already married wives. The former would only prove that which we already know and the later would be just one more strange item to understand in an already complex situation. Even if you eliminate the sexual aspect from the already married women it is hard to understand why J.S. would approach these women at all.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women after he died. This isn't well known, but it happened. It was part of the dynastic marriage/sealing belief/tradition and if you got sealed the the prophet you were ensured salvation. This practice didn't end till the 1930's, so as you can imagine - there are a lot.
The practice of sealing worked like this: Since the end was nigh, you were to seal together in the temple everyone in your family you could remember. After that was done, the patriarch of the family was then sealed, as part of the family, to the prophet or a member of the First Presidency of the church, and those people were sealed by proxy to Joseph Smith.
I am well aware of this practice and the dozens of postmortem sealings done for Smith.
You seemed to indicate there were women who claimed to have sexual relations with Smith who had not had some type of "marriage" with him while he was living. I want to know the names and where I can find these testimonies. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.
Oh, and by the way, you are actually wrong about the early sealings that occured. Children were not sealed to parents. Adults were not sealed to living or deceased parents. That came much later. Sealings were all about "marriage" and adoption to the higher ups.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
That is a weak argument. I didn't say he was a false prophet. Me might have been even a fallen prophet taken out early for his age.
JMS
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
Buffalo wrote:There is quite good evidence that Smith slept with all of his wives, including those already married.
You have photos we didn't know exist?
JMS
The prima facie evidences is that they were his wives. Absent strong evidence to the contrary, this is strong prima facie evidence that he shagged each and every one rotten.
This is further supplemented by testimony from the wives in question that Joseph inserted his penis into their orifices, whether vaginally or anally, we don't know. This is stronger evidence for sexual congress than exists for most historical figures.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
That is a weak argument. I didn't say he was a false prophet. Me might have been even a fallen prophet taken out early for his age.
JMS
Joseph's sexual misbehavior started early on. You can't separate the restoration from Joseph Smith's sexual predation and swindling operations. They start at the same time.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.