Book of Mormon geography

[_Fence Sitter]

Would the horse problem be similar? It's not just that there are no bones or fossils of horses found any where near the correct time period, there is also no evidence of their impact on a society who had domesticated them. No bridles or saddles, no indication of one culture dominating another in war using horses, no implements like plows or carts that would have been pulled by them, no pictures of them on walls from the time period. This sort of thing?

[_beastie]

Would the horse problem be similar? It's not just that there are no bones or fossils of horses found any where near the correct time period, there is also no evidence of their impact on a society who had domesticated them. No bridles or saddles, no indication of one culture dominating another in war using horses, no implements like plows or carts that would have been pulled by them, no pictures of them on walls from the time period. This sort of thing?

Exactly. The same with metallurgy.

[_Darth J]

I wonder why so many apologists cling to their insupportable Mesoamerican ideas instead of embracing the far more plausible Book of Mormon theory.

[_Tobin]

This is nonsense.
Most posters here were members of the church for many years. Most posters here spent as much time on their knees as your probably have, in search of answers.

Being on your knees and demanding the Lord answer you is not humbling yourself. This is not something you can force to happen and make demands of God about (in fact, that is the opposite of what you should do). Many posters on here have completely turned against God and deny he exists. And fight against obvious truths and have lost all perspective. I understand doubts and expressing them and honestly seeking the truth. There is a big difference between that and fighting against God. Questioning, learning, expressing those doubts, and seeking the answers is positive. The other is a waste of material.

[_Tobin]

But the conundrum is this: if one believes that the most powerful polities in the area were actually Christian "Nephites", then one is left wondering why the most powerful polities in the area had ZERO influence on the social evolution of the region.
The problem isn't that no one can find evidence of the Nephites in Mesoamerica. The problem is that no one can even find a Nephite-shaped HOLE in Mesoamerica.

We are talking about a civilization that ended 1700 years ago. Without independent records, what would we know about the political and social impact of any nation (no matter how large) that long ago? They certainly weren't around when the Spanish arrived so that isn't going to be helpful. What could we tell about our civilization in 1700 years if all that was left was ruins? Very little could be gathered and whatever might survive would provide a very distorted picture. Now, assume that the mainland Chinese had since moved in here. What about the social, political, and so on would even remain and wouldn't the theories of the day just assume the Chinese always were here?

[_beastie]

Being on your knees and demanding the Lord answer you is not humbling yourself. This is not something you can force to happen and make demands of God about (in fact, that is the opposite of what you should do). Many posters on here have completely turned against God and deny he exists. And fight against obvious truths and have lost all perspective. I understand doubts and expressing them and honestly seeking the truth. There is a big difference between that and fighting against God. Questioning, learning, expressing those doubts, and seeking the answers is positive. The other is a waste of material.

I'm going to be frank and blunt. You have no idea what people here may or may not have done in regards to their search for truth. You are demonstrating arrogance by pretending otherwise.

[_beastie]

We are talking about a civilization that ended 1700 years ago. Without independent records, what would we know about the political and social impact of any nation (no matter how large) that long ago? They certainly weren't around when the Spanish arrived so that isn't going to be helpful. What could we tell about our civilization in 1700 years if all that was left was ruins? Very little could be gathered and whatever might survive would provide a very distorted picture. Now, assume that the mainland Chinese had since moved in here. What about the social, political, and so on would even remain and wouldn't the theories of the day just assume the Chinese always were here?

Have you studied Mesoamerican history at all?

[_Tobin]

Have you studied Mesoamerican history at all?

I'd be happy to. Would you like to point me at the great accounts of the history of Mesoamerica as witnessed by whom exactly? What independent book written so long ago do you have for us all to read? The problem you have beastie is they don't exist at all. Your independent history of Mesoamerica was never written unfortunately and all we have are ruins to speculate about.

[Guest]

What a bunch of non sequitur tripe! You want proof. You can talk to God today to get it. The problem is that most of you won't humble yourselves to the point to receive an answer. In the end, it won't matter. You'll have your proof in time when you stand before God and are shown all these things.

There is also the possiblility that spending too much time on one's knees praying can cause the imagination to turn ancient religion into a personal fantasy.

We are talking about a civilization that ended 1700 years ago. Without independent records, what would we know about the political and social impact of any nation (no matter how large) that long ago? They certainly weren't around when the Spanish arrived so that isn't going to be helpful. What could we tell about our civilization in 1700 years if all that was left was ruins? Very little could be gathered and whatever might survive would provide a very distorted picture. Now, assume that the mainland Chinese had since moved in here. What about the social, political, and so on would even remain and wouldn't the theories of the day just assume the Chinese always were here?

Would you like to point me at the great accounts of the history of Mesoamerica as witnessed by whom exactly? What independent book written so long ago do you have for us all to read?

Here are a couple of things worth reading:

A Brief History of Piedras Negras as Told by the Ancient Maya, History Revealed in Maya Glyphs, published by the Aid and Education Project, Inc. With this book you can learn to read an account of Mayan history using the glyphs. The book is from the glyphs, many that were carved in stone before the Europeans arrived.
http://www.famsi.org/research/pitts/pit ... istory.pdf

Archaeology and religion: a comparison of the Zapotec and Maya. This one will help you to realize how scientists study and understand ancient religions in Meso-America. It shows two different religions that were in practice together at the time that the Book of Mormon events allegedly occurred.
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/may ... apotec.pdf

[_Quasimodo]

I'd be happy to. Would you like to point me at the great accounts of the history of Mesoamerica as witnessed by whom exactly? What independent book written so long ago do you have for us all to read? The problem you have beastie is they don't exist at all. Your independent history of Mesoamerica was never written unfortunately and all we have are ruins to speculate about.

The descendants of the Meso-American civilizations are still there. Their cultural histories are documented. Those major civilizations were in full flower when the Spanish found them. Their writings have been deciphered. There is no mystery.

Catholic missionaries did a very good job of documenting those civilizations first hand when they first contacted them. We have ruins, writings, artifacts, written catholic histories and cultural histories to explain who these people were (and still are).

If you spend a little while researching the topic, Tobin, you won't sound so foolish in these posts.