Shocked by Polygamy

[_Tobin]

Yes I am actually going to suggest that Joseph Smith had and used condoms. Why is that adsurd?

And you can substantiate that claim (like all the rest of your claims so far) how exactly? I feel like I'm talking to Ed Decker's sock puppet.

Can you substantiate your claim the he did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewi.. I mean Marinda? Comon sense and Ockham's Razor say he did.

So, basically the answer is no, you have no proof for any of your assertions. No one saw anything, no one said anything, no children - nothing. Just your common sense tells you that it must have happened. Amazing.

[_Themis]

I didn't get to the point of pushing Ignore. I am going to just move on. I am building a competing board. One that requires tact, intelligence, and actual dialogue, not namecalling and character hits to push one's views.

JMS

I assume then you will not participating in your new board since I see you engaging in insults fairly frequently.

[_Infymus]

Yes I am actually going to suggest that Joseph Smith had and used condoms. Why is that adsurd?

I think it would be less absurd to believe that Joseph used abortions.

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_joes ... 1127437576

Wife of Apostle Orson Pratt isn't the only one who knew about abortions in Nauvoo..

LDS Elder Ebenezer Robinson testified that Hyrum Smith:

"instructed me in Nov or Dec 1843 to make a selection of some young woman and he would seal her to me, and I should take her home," he recalled, "and if she should have an offspring give out word that she had a husband, an Elder, who had gone on a foreign mission." Possibly referring to a secluded birthplace, or conceivably to abortion, Robinson spoke of "a place appointed in Iowa, 12 or 18 miles from Nauvoo to send female victims to his polygamous births." - Ebenezer Robinson to Jason W. Briggs, Jan. 28, 1880, LDS archives.

On December 29, 1873, Ebenezer and Angeline Robinson signed an affidavit saying that Hyrum Smith had come to their house in the fall of 1843 to teach them the doctrine of polygamy.

Apostle Orson Pratt's wife testified...

"One day they came both, Joseph and [Doctor] Bennett, on horseback to my house. Bennett dismounted, Joseph remained outside. Bennett wanted me to return to him a book I had borrowed from him. It was a so-called doctor-book. I had a rapidly growing little family and wanted to inform myself about certain matters in regard to babies, etc., -- this explains my borrowing that book."

"While giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said: 'Oh, a little job for Joseph; one of his women is in trouble.' Saying this. he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end."

"I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered." - Testimony of Apostle Orson Pratt's wife, Sarah Pratt from "Joseph Smith the Prophet: His Family and Friends"

[_Themis]

Many members are shocked not to learn polygamy began with Joseph, but on the details about it which most of it can be learned from fair and farms. The church brings it up so infrequently that it should not be a surprise that many members may not know hardly anything about it. They certainly don't get into any details.

There is plenty of evidence that Joseph did have sex with some of his wives. As someone has already brought up, even being married is evidence unless you can present evidence that they were only meant to platonic. Also birth control methods were known and Joseph was accused of doing abortions with his single wives. Sylvia only the one child who could be Joseph's biologic child, so yes it is good evidence that they had sexual intercourse. The apologetic is poor since she did not tell all her children this. To me the real problems were with how Joseph was going about it.

[_son of Ishmael]

No one saw anything, no one said anything, no children - nothing. Just your common sense tells you that it must have happened. Amazing.

People did see and say things, that’s why Joseph Smith was always denying it.

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this...I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me...What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411) (From a sermon in 1844)

But just to be sure, I just prayed about it and the holy ghost told me that he did have sex with them.

[_Tobin]

But just to be sure, I just prayed about it and the holy ghost told me that he did have sex with them.

Well, if that is how you came to understand things, no wonder you are so mixed up. May I suggest using reason, knowledge, and facts instead and spend less time in idle speculation based on the most vapid of reasons like your common sense told you so - or you had a bout of heartburn after praying so it must be true.

[_angsty]

Really? I heard there are people that are shocked that polygamy happened and act like it's a new revelation to them.

How can you be a member of the Church and not know about polygamy? I am confused how this is possible.

JMS

I don't find it surprising-- at all. It isn't something missionaries are trained to bring up. The church doesn't emphasize polygamy and doesn't include much about it in church-authored manuals. Not everyone has read the D&C-- particularly those who focus on the Book of Mormon (since it is the keystone) and haven't been through seminary. Many members find the topic to be an embarrassment and don't exactly bring it up while they are "fellowshipping" potential converts or in Sunday School, and not everyone watches the news and/or obsesses about Mormon history or public perception related to Mormonism. Some people evaluate it solely on their own experience with it.

I know many people who were shocked to find out about polygamy AFTER they were baptized. I also know a number of people who were shocked to find out about the priesthood ban AFTER they were baptized. I personally think that such an ugly history warrants full-disclosure, but TPTB apparently disagree with me.

There are people I grew up with in the church who didn't know about polygamy at all until they were older because their parents didn't know and/or didn't think it was important to let them in on it. It just wasn't something that was central to their belief and it apparently never came up in a way that registered indelibly. I knew about Utah polygamy from my mother, but to this day my mother (a lifelong TBM who is accepting of polygamy generally) thinks that Joseph Smith was monogamous, and that is the impression the church has often given, and because she is inclined to take her prophet at his word when he issues a denial. In seminary I learned about the unauthorized "spiritual wifery" that caused John C. Bennett's demise, but no one mentioned that Joseph Smith was involved in such things at the time. Incidentally, my seminary teacher was a convert and not well-versed with the history beyond what was in the approved manual. I found out about Joseph Smith's polygamy from FAIR/FARMS articles.

I learned a bit about Utah polygamy from my parents. I have friends I grew up with who had convert parents and they never learned anything about it. As for Joseph Smith's polygamy, that takes some research and willingness to consider sources beyond what the church generally emphasizes. The church and church-culture have often warned about anti-Mormon sources, and scholars who destroyed their testimonies by delving too much into the mysteries of the gospel, and not everyone views their spiritual life as something that needs to be conducted with a scholarly (or pseudo-scholarly) approach.

Anyway, all that to say, I don't find it all that incredible. Most Mormons don't seem to have a very in-depth history of their own religion anyway, beyond the faith-promoting bits mentioned in manuals.

[_son of Ishmael]

But just to be sure, I just prayed about it and the holy ghost told me that he did have sex with them.

Well, if that is how you came to understand things, no wonder you are so mixed up. May I suggest using reason, knowledge, and facts instead and spend less time in idle speculation based on the most vapid of reasons like your common sense told you so - or you had a bout of heartburn after praying so it must be true.

I was being flippant

[_harmony]

It wasn't the polygamy that was the most shocking, nor the polyandry, nor the manipulation, nor the sneaking around.

It was the lies, told from the pulpit and in the church-owned press.

God does not work that way; man does. When Sec 132 is removed from the canon, we will all know the Brethren have finally admitted that Joseph was not The Prophet he claimed to be.

[Guest]

I have a hard time buying that. It's one of the most famous aspects of the Church. It's in D&C:132.

JMS

Gentle jskains. There is nothing in in the text of 132 itself about polygamy. Go ahead, read it an see. It just about eternal marraige between one man and one woman. If you would get in tune with the spirit you could see that. Don't get sucked into one person's personal interpretations and folk legends, Joseph Smith and BY were not infalable like that other church I could mention.

And when the Spirit has born powerful witness to you that the true meaning of 132 is opposition to same sex marriage, you will be ready to learn that nothing in the Book of Mormon says that Indians are Lamanites, enough of urban legends, follow the living prophet, he will not lead you astray.