The Light of Christ

[_Albion]

Sorry, gdemetz, Stephen was a martyr....Joseph Smith was in jail after being attacked by a mob and some of his associates fighting back with guns. Hardly the stuff of martyrdom. Recheck you Mormon history...he declared his so-called Inspired Version finished.

[_gdemetz]

Hello?!? I am very familiar with that history! They tried to defend themselves from the murderers, but they were still martyrs!!!

[_Themis]

Sorry, gdemetz, Stephen was a martyr....Joseph Smith was in jail after being attacked by a mob and some of his associates fighting back with guns. Hardly the stuff of martyrdom. Recheck you Mormon history...he declared his so-called Inspired Version finished.

Martyr is just a word that many may define differently. To me it is pointless to argue it. Joseph got murdered by a mob. He didn't deserve it even though he made mistakes and had a lot of responsibility for his circumstances. He tried to fight them off and I applaud him for it. I would have done the same. Even his calling out for any masons in the crowd for help was a smart, though desperate, thing to do, but then he was in a desperate circumstance.

[_Albion]

In essence I do not disagree with what you say but to put the man in the company of real martyrs for the Christian faith (albeit from my perspective a corrupted Christian faith) is a stretch too far for me.

[_thews]

Hello?!? I am very familiar with that history! They tried to defend themselves from the murderers, but they were still martyrs!!!

Was Biggie Smalls "martyred" too? How about Jesse James? Joseph Smith sent word back to come save him and first attempted to run away before he was shot. You can't even acknowledge simple facts without running away (see below), so how is it anyone should listen to your so-called knowledge of Mormon history when you obviously only know the versions you're told to believe?

1) Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using occult seer stones he owned before the supposed angels appeared to him through a stove-pipe hat. The first seer stone was found by looking through the green stone of a necromancer (Sally Chase).

2) The "first" vision has so many versions you must accept the version you're told to accept while rejecting the previous versions.

3) The Book of Abraham is an absolute farce and has nothing to do with the pagan documents the LDS church hides from you... nothing.

4) Polygamy is a requirement in the Joseph Smith version of heaven and anyone (according to the D&C) who rejects it will be damned.

5) LDS doctrine is racist and there is no doubt about that. While they will tell you that "dark" doesn't mean skin color, if you accept that then why were the rules changed in 1978? It does mean skin color... wake up.

6) The Kinderhook plates (a known hoax) were translated by Joseph Smith... how do you rationalize this?

[_gdemetz]

Thews, you and Albion appear to have been brainwashed by anti Mormon propaganda. I suggest you check out FAIR about your claims! Your arguments are also so shallow! Of course, anyone who has been commanded to practice polygamy and doesn't would be damned, however, it was only a small percentage who were allowed to practice it! Do you think that Joseph would teach all the rest that they were damned?!? The rest of your arguments are shallow also; just check out FAIR!

[_Albion]

gdemetz, I am not quite sure just what your last post directed at me is addressing since I'm not sure I have posted much on the adulteries of the early Mormon Church lived under the guise of "Celestial marriage". Perhaps you are referring to the shoot out at Carthage Jail. I make no apologies for the mob that attacked the jail...their action was not lawful but then neither was Smith's action in destroying a free press that put him there in the first place. My own view is that it would have been better had Smith lived so that Mormonism would likely have died a natural death like so many other weird American religions prevalent at that time. Just think, if they had gone into the appliance business like the Amana Colonies your wish might be fulfilled and there would be a Mormon in every kitchen.

[_thews]

Thews, you and Albion appear to have been brainwashed by anti Mormon propaganda.

Are all of your counter arguments based on the "I'm rubber and you're glue" inversion tactic? I use facts and post data that can be referenced. You post nothing but a non-specific opinion followed by another incorrect use of an exclamation point in order to imply you've actually made a point, when you haven't even stated what point you disagree with.

I suggest you check out FAIR about your claims! Your arguments are also so shallow!

You haven't even acknowledged my claims. The six points I presented can be validated by data from Fair. If you believe you can argue with data against anything I've posed, please do, but I know how people like you work; here's how your brain works:

1) Believe everything you're told to believe without questioning it or investigating the data, or lack of data to support the claim.
2) When presented with factual data you can't rationalize, find a supposed parallel fact that negates it... in the LDS world, two false things equal something.
3) After claiming things that are factually true are not and you're painted in a corner, instead of just admitting the truth, run away from the argument claiming it's anti, when all it is, is the truth that's kept from you.


For reference... please tell me one thing that incorrect (note you already failed on #5 and just ran away from the data proving you wrong on #4).

1) Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using occult seer stones he owned before the supposed angels appeared to him through a stove-pipe hat. The first seer stone was found by looking through the green stone of a necromancer (Sally Chase).

2) The "first" vision has so many versions you must accept the version you're told to accept while rejecting the previous versions.

3) The Book of Abraham is an absolute farce and has nothing to do with the pagan documents the LDS church hides from you... nothing.

4) Polygamy is a requirement in the Joseph Smith version of heaven and anyone (according to the D&C) who rejects it will be damned.

5) LDS doctrine is racist and there is no doubt about that. While they will tell you that "dark" doesn't mean skin color, if you accept that then why were the rules changed in 1978? It does mean skin color... wake up.

6) The Kinderhook plates (a known hoax) were translated by Joseph Smith... how do you rationalize this?

Of course, anyone who has been commanded to practice polygamy and doesn't would be damned, however, it was only a small percentage who were allowed to practice it!

What? Where did you get "small percentage" in the above? Care to use data and post its source? Here... I'll show you how to make a factual point using factual information:

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Polygamy

"From [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle, no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory." - William Clayton, Historical Record, Vol. 6, pp. 225-227

Do you think that Joseph would teach all the rest that they were damned?!?

Joseph Smith "taught" what he needed to in order to get what he wanted, which was young girls. If you know anything about the Sarah Ann Whitney letter it's all there in black and white. You can choose to believe the hypothetical stories you're told to believe, or instead read the words he wrote, which explicitly convey that the only condition it was not safe for Sarah's parents to bring her over was if his wife Emma was there... he states it twice.
For reference: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/16-Sa ... hitney.htm

The rest of your arguments are shallow also; just check out FAIR!

Again you make no point but to bucketize the facts as "shallow" without even stating what you're talking about. Be specific... what data have I posted that's incorrect? What data have you posted... nothing, because you have nothing but fodder to rely on as the truth.

[_gdemetz]

Check out About.com Latter Day Saints. Anyone who knows much at all about LDS history knows that very few recommends were given out for plural marriages! The ages of Joseph Smith's wives are revealed by apostates for their shock value since young women of those ages were considered as very marriageable in those days. Yea, that's right; "without obedience to that principle"! All who are worthy will one day get the chance to obey that principle, however, God does not hold it against someone if he is not commanded or allowed to practice it! Think! Would God hold it against someone if they died before that principle was restored?! Of course not! Why do you think the church has ordinances for the dead?! There is so much you don't understand, not only about the history of the church, but its doctrines also!!!

[_thews]

Check out About.com Latter Day Saints. Anyone who knows much at all about LDS history knows that very few recommends were given out for plural marriages! The ages of Joseph Smith's wives are revealed by apostates for their shock value since young women of those ages were considered as very marriageable in those days. Yea, that's right; "without obedience to that principle"! All who are worthy will one day get the chance to obey that principle, however, God does not hold it against someone if he is not commanded or allowed to practice it! Think! Would God hold it against someone if they died before that principle was restored?! Of course not! Why do you think the church has ordinances for the dead?! There is so much you don't understand, not only about the history of the church, but its doctrines also!!!

Check the above for more of the same drivel on where lemmings are supposed to go to find things to believe in. Once again gdemetz, you have addressed nothing, said nothing, and are even too ignorant to actually read what FairMormon has to say as you use them as your supposed source, as they will solidify everything you choose to ignore. And one more thing FYI...

The exclamation mark, exclamation point, bang, or dembanger is a punctuation mark usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feelings or high volume (shouting), and often marks the end of a sentence. Example: “Watch out!” The character is encoded in Unicode as U+0021 ! exclamation point (HTML: !). This punctuation mark is called, in the newspaper world, "a screamer, a gasper, [or] a startler"

When everything you say has this fake emphasis on it, well, it's like everything you say, which is nothing but parrot-speak.