The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

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_Tobin
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _Tobin »

Sophocles wrote:Tobin might want to review that lesson.
Your supposition has a few problems.
1) Why would the devil want me to know there were supernatural beings? After all, I was already an ex-mormon/atheist.
2) I was doing something wrong. I knew it and God knew it and the person with me knew it. So, the devil wants us not to sin?
3) Of all the encounters with God that I have read, I have yet to read about anyone doing the ole handshake trick.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Buffalo
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _Buffalo »

Tobin wrote:
Sophocles wrote:Tobin might want to review that lesson.
Your supposition has a few problems.
1) Why would the devil want me to know there were supernatural beings? After all, I was already an ex-mormon/atheist.
2) I was doing something wrong. I knew it and God knew it and the person with me knew it. So, the devil wants us not to sin?
3) Of all the encounters with God that I have read, I have yet to read about anyone doing the ole handshake trick.


The devil wanted you to go on the wrong path. Satan knows that the lowest rung of hell is reserved for those who believe in the Book of Mormon.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

I added another interesting tidbit at the bottom of the original post.
_Chap
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _Chap »

Sophocles wrote:
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “An angel of God never has wings. Some will say that they have seen a spirit; that he offered them his hand, but they did not touch it. This is a lie. First, it is contrary to the plan of God: a spirit cannot come but in glory; an angel has flesh and bones; we see not their glory. The devil may appear as an angel of light. Ask God to reveal it; if it be of the devil, he will flee from you; if of God, He will manifest Himself, or make it manifest. We may come to Jesus and ask Him; He will know all about it.” ( History of the Church, 3:392.)


http://institute.LDS.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-121-129.asp

Tobin might want to review that lesson.


So ... seraphim are not angels. News to me. But then I am languishing in ignorance of the current dispensation.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_son of Ishmael
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _son of Ishmael »

If you click on the link below, it will take you to the church’s Joseph Smith website. There you will see several depictions of him translating the plates. None of them show him with the seer stone and hat or even the U&T. There is also a video clip of him reading off of the plates to Oliver.

http://www.josephsmith.net/josephsmith/ ... xtfmt=tab3

This is a church sponsored website so I think it is reasonable to believe that those are church approved renditions. They have plenty of money and if they wanted a well done painting of Joseph with his head in a hat, they would do it. Clearly these are the images the Church wants the world to see and believe.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
_The Mighty Builder
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _The Mighty Builder »

Of curiosity is the use of the painting in the first place. Doesn't BYU have a School of Art? Are there no good artist attending? The subject of the Crucifixion and Resurrection are NOT copyrighted, so any artisan can create a painting depicting the very subject that was altered. Again WHY change a Renaissance Artwork instead of originating one in line with Mormon fiction?
_MsJack
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _MsJack »

Chap wrote:So ... seraphim are not angels. News to me. But then I am languishing in ignorance of the current dispensation.

D&C 77:4. When the Bible and other ancient scriptures speak of angels having wings, Mormons see this as a metaphor for an angels' power to move around.

Since angels and men are all the same race in Mormon theology, and all are patterned literally after the physical image of God, angels with wings would not make much sense.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_sock puppet
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _sock puppet »

Aristotle Smith wrote:One of the common complaints that critics of the church make is that all artistic renderings of the translation of the Book of Mormon are completely wrong. They always show Joseph poring over gold plates or using the Urim and Thummim, or deep in thought, or something that accords with common Mormon misunderstandings of how the translation happened. They never show it how it happened, with Joseph sticking his head in a hat.

LDS apologists have generally retorted that it's artistic license or the artists don't know what is going on. I mean the artists just paint the stuff and the GAs believe in the freedom and integrity of the artist and his/her product so they wouldn't dare tell the artists to go back to their studios and get the paintings correct. Above all they always emphasize that art isn't doctrine and that only bozos get their doctrine from art.

Up until now I have sided with the apologists, but I am now switching sides to the critics on this one. Why? Because of this art work put in the December 2011 issue of the Ensign. Please take a minute to compare the original art work on the left and the Enisgn's version of the art work on the right at this web page:

http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2012 ... st-angels/

Basically, someone at the COB decided to edit Carl Bloch's "The Resurrection" to make it more in harmony with LDS beliefs. Specifically, the angels in the Ensign version lack wings and are dressed more modestly.

If the LDS church can censor and edit a great painting to accord more with Mormon doctrine, then they sure as hell can tell their in house and contract artists to get the translation renditions correct. From this we can conclude that the COB doesn't give a care about artistic integrity. And they sure are worried that people are getting their doctrine from art work. Since this is the case, the COB has no excuse to continue publishing the misleading pictures of the Book of Mormon translation. They either need to commission new works of art to reflect reality or it's time to edit in Joseph's face in a hat in all of the existing LDS artwork depicting the translation process.

ETA: I found the pdf of the original Ensign article to see for yourself, it's on page 54:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/lds-magazin ... st-eng.pdf

ETA 2: I just found something else interesting. In the first page of the above pdf article there is another photoshopped image. They composited two Bloch paintings. On the next page, this is the attribution given:

Ensign wrote:Composite Image of The Crucifixion and The Resurrection by Carl Heinrich Bloch. Images of paintings used by permission of the National Historic Museum at Frederiksborg in Hillerod


OK, so they are saying basically, "We Photoshopped these two together."

Now look at the attribution for the image of the resurrection on page 54:

Ensign wrote:The Resurrection by Carl Heinrich Bloch; Used by permission of the National Historic Museum at Frederiksborg in Hillerod


No indication given that they photoshopped anything. Why admit to photshopping the composite image, but no indication that they photoshopped the second?

Another mopologetic bubble burst, proving once again that NAMIRS/FAIR asschats to make up excuses for why "the Church" lies.

Good catch, Aristotle. I appreciate your pointing out yet another mopologetic camouflage to protect "the Church".
_cafe crema
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _cafe crema »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Basically, someone at the COB decided to edit Carl Bloch's "The Resurrection" to make it more in harmony with LDS beliefs. Specifically, the angels in the Ensign version lack wings and are dressed more modestly.





If they edit Bloch's work and publish it as his without noting the editing they have done to the work, they are lying to the readers about Bloch's understanding, period.

I must admit though I was a bit surprised to find it took this to make the connection between "art" presented by a church and the message the church wants perceived, probably a difference in the presence of artwork in our perspective churches.
_ludwigm
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Re: The Artistic Renderings of the Face In the Hat

Post by _ludwigm »

Here is the base picture to photoshop:
http://rsc.BYU.edu/sites/default/files/ ... copy_0.jpg

BYU.edu ...

2 543,81 KB (2 604 866 bytes)
2 081px × 2 775px

see http://rsc.BYU.edu/archived/%E2%80%9Cbe ... surrection
and as a whole, https://rsc.BYU.edu/sites/default/files ... u-toit.pdf
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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