Tobin wrote:I can understand why Brant has proposed this loose translation theory, but I don't see it as being very helpful in studying the Book of Mormon. If the Book of Mormon is so loosely translated to get concrete concepts like horse wrong, but word for word can bring Isaiah over - I think there is something wrong with the theory.
Brant is smart to avoid the Book of Abraham thing altogether. Anyone that wanders into that field of landmines is just asking to get blown up. At some point they'll have to admit the truth and realize the Book of Abraham has nothing to do with the papyrus as I do. The papyrus was the impetus for Joseph Smith to go to the Lord and receive the origin story that is the Book of Abraham. But this shouldn't come as a shock to Brant and other apologists and I'm surprised they haven't realized this already. Joseph Smith simply possessed NO ability to translate what-so-ever (whether it was the gold plates of the Book of Mormon or the papyrus). If he were able to tell us anything about them, it had to come from God and so it should come as no surprise he had no concept of what the papyrus really were.
Friend Tobin (offering an olive leaf), wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that Joseph Smith was making it all up as opposed to believing that he had some contact with God? If you believe that Joseph Smith had no ability to translate ancient scripts, why believe in any of the Book of Mormon?
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Quasimodo wrote:Friend Tobin (offering an olive leaf), wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that Joseph Smith was making it all up as opposed to believing that he had some contact with God? If you believe that Joseph Smith had no ability to translate ancient scripts, why believe in any of the Book of Mormon?
I think you mistake my position. It is important to realize that Joseph Smith had no abilities in this translation (as I have often labeled him a nincompoop) or in any translation he ever claimed to have made. And you may be right, the Book of Mormon and Mormonism, the Bible and Christianity/Judaism, the Quaran and Islam, and all of the rest are simply a series of religions based on mythical tales. That is only reasonable.
But, I think you miss a lot by ignoring and completely discounting them. I believe there are some great themes, some great stories, and some great principles and truths to be found here. I believe that is what ultimately is important and a great deal can be learned from these religions and myths/stories - no matter if any of these stories are disproved by science or validated by a God showing up in the end.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I think you mistake my position. It is important to realize that Joseph Smith had no abilities in this translation (as I have often labeled him a nincompoop) or in any translation he ever claimed to have made.
So where would Joseph get the idea that the papyri contained the story of Abraham?
But, I think you miss a lot by ignoring and completely discounting them. I believe there are some great themes, some great stories, and some great principles and truths to be found here. I believe that is what ultimately is important and a great deal can be learned from these religions and myths/stories - no matter if any of these stories are disproved by science or validated by a God showing up in the end.
I am not sure anyone here does not see value in mythical stories from the Bible, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, etc. Many fictional stories have truths that can be gleaned from them.
Themis wrote:So where would Joseph get the idea that the papyri contained the story of Abraham?
He had just translated the Book of Mormon which had been written by the Nephites and just assumed wrongly that the papyrus was the same, written by the hand of Abraham and that it contained the story of Abraham. His speculations on the Egyptian mythos portrayed in Fascimiles is the icing on the cake. He sees these and like a child that doesn't know any better, starts filling in the depictions with things from the story he had just received.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Themis wrote:So where would Joseph get the idea that the papyri contained the story of Abraham?
He had just translated the Book of Mormon which had been written by the Nephites and just assumed wrongly that the papyrus was the same, written by the hand of Abraham and that it contained the story of Abraham. His speculations on the Egyptian mythos portrayed in Fascimiles is the icing on the cake. He sees these and like a child that doesn't know any better, starts filling in the depictions with things from the story he had just received.
So why does God give him a translation knowing that Joseph is thinking and claiming it is from the papyri, including his translations of the facsimiles?
Jaybear wrote:I suspect that you are overstating the evidence, which is something you would never allow a critic to get away with.
He didn't, at least for attribution and he said he couldn't comment. Brant Gardner's new book lays this out as Brant tries to come up with his various theories.
The best you have is in JSH. Not much of anything there.
I've long argued against the face in the hat theory, which Whitmer describes, only because it would be impossible to make complicated dictation come out of a hat.
Joseph Smith had a doppelganger. Joseph Smith did none of those evil things that the critics accuse him of. Even the King Follett Discourse was a production of his evil twin.
(In all honesty, I think BY had a pernicious and growing influence on him in the last year or so of his life.)
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
Yahoo Bot wrote: The best you have is in JSH. Not much of anything there.
It's the best there is.
I've long argued against the face in the hat theory, which Whitmer describes, only because it would be impossible to make complicated dictation come out of a hat.
If the witnesses are correct in that he was reading off the words that formed on the seer stone, then yes it would be easy. Sound is not muffled as bad as you want to claim. If Oliver is involved, being the supposed principle scribe, then they only need put on an act from time to time for the benefit of others. Joseph didn't need to dictate the many pages of text copied from the KJV of the Bible, yet they suggest one was never present. Hmm
Themis wrote:So why does God give him a translation knowing that Joseph is thinking and claiming it is from the papyri, including his translations of the facsimiles?
Remember that God didn't give the papyrus to Joseph Smith and that this was driven by Joseph Smith. Also, Joseph Smith had no idea where the Book of Mormon took place and understood nothing about Mesoamerica. Joseph Smith had a lot of problems too. His willingness to engage in using seerstones was not inspired. God just worked with Joseph Smith, despite that. Later Joseph Smith discarded them as he became more familiar with the Lord. The same is true here. His misconceptions and unwillingness to ask and fully understand things got in his way. But, Joseph Smith was a human being and I understand that and he did and said a lot of stupid things as a result.
Here is an example of Joseph Smith being rather boastful and full of himself. Every time I read things like this I do a *facepalm*:
Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet..." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408)
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
