Helping Kevin Graham's Unbelief

[_Droopy]

It contains a glorious beatdown by Blixa here:

Yeah, right. Blixa talks a very good game, but the fact of the matter is that I've never actually seen here debate anything. All of her time is usually spent talking about how smart and educated she is, and very little if any, in actual demonstration.

[_Chap]

Now Elder Droopy has joined Elder Wade as his comp, I am sure Kevin will be rushing to open the front door and invite them in to teach him.

(Wonderful, by the way, how quickly Droopy punctured Blixa's shallow intellectual pretensions. That put her in her place all right!)

[Guest]

Now Elder Droopy has joined Elder Wade as his comp, I am sure Kevin will be rushing to open the front door and invite them in to teach him.

(Wonderful, by the way, how quickly Droopy punctured Blixa's shallow intellectual pretensions. That put her in her place all right!)

I've never said Blixa was shallow. She has always presented herself in such forums as this as an insufferable, condescending, textbook leftist intellectual snob, but I never said shallow.

I've just never as yet actually seen her do much more than point out - much like Graham - how smart she is, but have yet to see the pudding in which resides the proof.

She usually just drives by, and doesn't do much debating.

[_Buffalo]

Droopy's boiling yet tangle-footed assaults on Kevin strike me as somewhat disingenuous. I think most of the hostility comes because the Atlas-like Graham fills Droopy with thoughts he's been trying very hard to suppress, just as Wade has.

[_schreech]

Now Elder Droopy has joined Elder Wade as his comp...

[_consiglieri]

I often wish I could go back to the way it was when I had a simple and pure knowledge of the truth of the LDS Church. I was much happier then.

But then, I also know that my happiness was founded upon a host of incorrect assumptions, partial truths, and even flat-out lies.

It was a happiness grounded in ignorance.

Oedipus refused to stop his search for truth, even when it was becoming abundantly clear that what he was finding out was leading him to misery.

Oedipus was brave enough to choose misery based on truth rather than happiness based on falsehood.

I'm not saying somebody has to be a Greek hero to follow truth wherever it may lead and whatever the consequences.

All you have to do is follow the Mormon hymn, "Do what is right, let the consequence follow."

Or, "O say what is truth, 'tis the fairest gem to which mortals or gods can aspire."

There is no going back to simple knowledge for me, anymore than I can return to the simplicity and innocence of my childhood.

And really, it would not be wise to try to go back. Childhood has been transcended, as has my initial "knowledge" that the LDS Church is true. It is time to put away childish things.

As I continue to go forward in my spiritual journey, I find my "knowledge" barometer has fallen and my "belief" barometer has increased.

I went from faith to knowledge to doubt to belief.

Belief is okay for me. In belief, I can be intellectually honest and spiritually questing.

Knowledge led to nothing but stagnation, supercilliousness and contempt.

But that's just for me.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Shulem]

Apparently you can't ask these sorts of questions and retain faith.

"And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

1. Does this mean that I'm to hope that there really is a king's name in Facsimile No. 3 as Joseph Smith revealed through revelation? Will that increase my faith?

2. I'm not able to find the name Shulem in the writing of Facismile No. 3 as Joseph Smith translated but through my faith it's still true.

This is a marvelous work and a wonder!

Paul O

[_Droopy]

I often wish I could go back to the way it was when I had a simple and pure knowledge of the truth of the LDS Church. I was much happier then.

But then, I also know that my happiness was founded upon a host of incorrect assumptions, partial truths, and even flat-out lies.

It was a happiness grounded in ignorance.

Well, at least thanks for admitting you have apostatized from the church. I hinted at precisely this several years ago, and, as I remember, you bristled.

Just one question, back when you were teaching your "graduate level" gospel doctrine class, and your Priesthood leaders had placed a sacred trust in you to teach and testify of the restored gospel to your assembled hearers, did you subscribe to the perspectives you've outline above?

Oedipus refused to stop his search for truth, even when it was becoming abundantly clear that what he was finding out was leading him to misery.

Oedipus was brave enough to choose misery based on truth rather than happiness based on falsehood.

I'm not saying somebody has to be a Greek hero to follow truth wherever it may lead and whatever the consequences.

All you have to do is follow the Mormon hymn, "Do what is right, let the consequence follow."

Or, "O say what is truth, 'tis the fairest gem to which mortals or gods can aspire."

There is no going back to simple knowledge for me, anymore than I can return to the simplicity and innocence of my childhood.

And really, it would not be wise to try to go back. Childhood has been transcended, as has my initial "knowledge" that the LDS Church is true. It is time to put away childish things.

As I continue to go forward in my spiritual journey, I find my "knowledge" barometer has fallen and my "belief" barometer has increased.

Just the standard secularist/exmo litany of self serving, narcissistic posturing, regaling oneself with one's own pristine, hallowed intellectual depth, self honesty, and driven snow purity of motives.

Nice show, Consig...if you like this how-I-left-the-church-and-found-the-church-of-reason dog and pony show.

I went from faith to knowledge to doubt to belief.

Interesting, as the normal course is moving from doubt to belief to faith to knowledge, and then repeating the belief-faith-knowledge (revelation) cycle as spiritual and intellectual progress proceeds.

Knowledge led to nothing but stagnation, supercilliousness and contempt.

So "knowledge" is a negative category, and acquiring and absorbing it leads to personal degradation. Interesting.

But that's just for me.

If only that were true. Many, many others have and will - and unfortunately, some probably under your influence - yet let go of the Iron Rod and go wandering off down "strange roads" before the Great and Terrible day arrives unannounced...at midnight.

[_Chap]

... go wandering off down "strange roads" before the Great and Terrible day arrives unannounced...at midnight.

Um ...

Matthew 24

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But now a greater one than any of these is come, even Droopy. For he knoweth the hour.

(Would that be Mountain Standard Time? Or what?)

[_Brackite]

Is Wade Still Single???

To the Single Adult Brethren of the Church

President Ezra Taft Benson

...

Remember the counsel of Elder Bruce R. McConkie that “the most important single thing that any Latter-day Saint ever does in this world is to marry the right person in the right place by the right authority” (Choose an Eternal Companion, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, Provo, 3 May 1966, p. 2).

Understand that temple marriage is essential to your salvation and exaltation.

...

May I now say an additional word about an eternal opportunity and responsibility to which I have referred earlier and which is of greatest importance to you. I am referring to celestial marriage.

Just a few weeks ago, I received a letter from two devoted parents, part of which reads as follows:

“Dear President Benson: We are concerned about what seems to be a growing problem—at least in this part of the Church familiar to us—that is, so many choice young men in the Church over the age of thirty who are still unmarried.

“We have sons thirty, thirty-one, and thirty-three in this situation. Many of our friends also are experiencing this same concern for unmarried sons and daughters.”

Their letter continues:

“In our experience these are usually young men who have been on missions, are well educated, and are living the commandments (except this most important one). There does not appear to be a lack of choice young ladies in the same age bracket who could make suitable companions.

“It is most frustrating to us, as their parents, who sometimes feel we have failed in our parental teachings and guiding responsibilities.”

My dear single adult brethren, we are also concerned. We want you to know that the position of the Church has never changed regarding the importance of celestial marriage. It is a commandment of God. The Lord’s declaration in Genesis is still true: “And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone” (Gen. 2:18).

To obtain a fulness of glory and exaltation in the celestial kingdom, one must enter into this holiest of ordinances.

Without marriage, the purposes of the Lord would be frustrated. Choice spirits would be withheld from the experience of mortality. And postponing marriage unduly often means limiting your posterity, and the time will come, brethren, when you will feel and know that loss.

I can assure you that the greatest responsibility and the greatest joys in life are centered in the family, honorable marriage, and rearing a righteous posterity. And the older you become, the less likely you are to marry, and then you may lose these eternal blessings altogether.

President Spencer W. Kimball recounted an experience he once had:

“Recently I met a young returned missionary who is 35 years old. He had been home from his mission for 14 years and yet he was little concerned about his bachelorhood, and laughed about it.

“I shall feel sorry for this young man when the day comes that he faces the Great Judge at the throne and when the Lord asks this boy: ‘Where is your wife?’ All of his excuses which he gave to his fellows on earth will seem very light and senseless when he answers the Judge. ‘I was very busy,’ or ‘I felt I should get my education first,’ or ‘I did not find the right girl’—such answers will be hollow and of little avail. He knew he was commanded to find a wife and marry her and make her happy. He knew it was his duty to become the father of children and provide a rich, full life for them as they grew up. He knew all this, yet postponed his responsibility” (Ensign, Feb. 1975, p. 2).

I realize that some of you brethren may have genuine fears regarding the real responsibilities that will be yours if you do marry. You are concerned about being able to support a wife and family and provide them with the necessities in these uncertain economic times. Those fears must be replaced with faith.

I assure you, brethren, that if you will be industrious, faithfully pay your tithes and offerings, and conscientiously keep the commandments, the Lord will sustain you. Yes, there will be sacrifices required, but you will grow from these and will be a better man for having met them.

...

Honorable marriage is more important than wealth, position, and status. As husband and wife, you can achieve your life’s goals together. As you sacrifice for each other and your children, the Lord will bless you, and your commitment to the Lord and your service in His kingdom will be enhanced.

Now, brethren, do not expect perfection in your choice of a mate. Do not be so particular that you overlook her most important qualities of having a strong testimony, living the principles of the gospel, loving home, wanting to be a mother in Zion, and supporting you in your priesthood responsibilities.

Of course, she should be attractive to you, but do not just date one girl after another for the sole pleasure of dating without seeking the Lord’s confirmation in your choice of your eternal companion.

And one good yardstick as to whether a person might be the right one for you is this: in her presence, do you think your noblest thoughts, do you aspire to your finest deeds, do you wish you were better than you are?

(Ezra Taft Benson, “To the Single Adult Brethren of the Church,” Ensign, May 1988, P. 51-53: Hyper-Link:)



LDS Apostle Boyd K. Packer has stated:

Any man who thinks he's going to the highest degree of glory without a woman at his side does not understand the gospel. Together, they control the fountain of life. While neither can generate life without the other, the mystery of life unfolds when these two become one.

(Link: http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... iness.html )