Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

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_Chap
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:If I were to try to put this in LDS theological terms, I would say that some experiences, including horrific ones, ought to remain sacred to the people who endured them. Anything I could say would be the equivalent of blasphemy. I do not chat with Native Americans about the genocide my ancestors visited upon their people. I don't shoot the breeze about the shackles of slavery my ancestors placed on African men, women, and children. I don't pontificate about the rational argument for some upside to the Holocaust. I have nothing to say on the matter. I join with the victims and their descendants in fighting, to the best of my ability, to make sure it never happens again, and that such horrors, where they continue to exist, stop.


Nice translation!
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_lulu
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _lulu »

DCP wrote:But I do believe that good can, and often does, come out of evil. Indeed, I think that this is one of the beauties of the atonement of Christ, that, even out of horror and failure and sin, good can still be extracted if we will repent from and move beyond the bad. Not necessarily the good that would have come without the evil, but, still, some good nonetheless.

Let's break this down:

1. good often comes out of evil

What is the evil DCP is discussing? Slavery. So good came out of slavery

2. Atonement of Christ, who FREELY took on the sins of the world and died compared with INVOLUNTARY enslavement

3. But we must repent.

So disadvantage African-Americans have not repented so that they can obtain good from slavery?

4. but some good, nonetheless

Returns to first theme slavery producing good.

This man is an embarrassment to all of Mormonism.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_static
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _static »

Okay, here's the bottom line.

Slavery was evil and wrong; no one disagrees with that fact. But it happened. We cannot go back in time and prevent it. Why is it so revolting that a descendent of those who were enslaved (read: neither DCP nor Schryver, but an actual African-American) finds something good that came in spite of something evil? Why is it so disgusting for Schryver to commend someone for doing so on his blog? Look guys: nothing mortal is 100% good, and nothing mortal is 100% evil. The world is just not black and white like that. So open your minds a bit chill-out. Damn!

Well, we all know the answer: most people here are so hell-bent on finding any fault with DCP or Schryver that they'll stoop to this closemindedness.
- Stan
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _DarkHelmet »

static wrote:Okay, here's the bottom line.

Slavery was evil and wrong; no one disagrees with that fact. But it happened. We cannot go back in time and prevent it. Why is it so revolting that a descendent of those who were enslaved (read: neither DCP nor Schryver, but an actual African-American) finds something good that came in spite of something evil? Why is it so disgusting for Schryver to commend someone for doing so on his blog? Look guys: nothing mortal is 100% good, and nothing mortal is 100% evil. The world is just not black and white like that. So open your minds a bit chill-out. Damn!

Well, we all know the answer: most people here are so hell-bent on finding any fault with DCP or Schryver that they'll stoop to this closemindedness.


Are you DCP's mom?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

This is very much in Randy Bott territory, in my opinion. The thing is: there is a subtler undercurrent of racism behind the approval of those kinds of statements. E.g., this whole sort of colonialist thing where they're saying, "Hey, you're better off, since you're not marooned in Africa!" It suggests that they think that descendants of Africa-born slaves are better off today because, hey--*anything* is better that being stuck living in Africa! The problem here being, of course, that it was precisely this sort of view that led to slavery being acceptable in the first place: a kind of colonialist attitude that marginalizes people and places. And bear in mind: no one who makes this argument thinks that Africa is a crummy place to live simply because it's Africa. They think this because of who lives there now, and who lived there historically.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_huckelberry
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _huckelberry »

lulu wrote:
Whether the speaker is Black or white, there is nothing good about slavery PERIOD FULL STOP END OF SENTENCE

I am not aware of anybody here argueing that there is something good about slavery. I suppose there is viritue in simplicity. If people were in a quandary about the morality of slavery then the simple statement, it is bad , full stop etc makes sense. On the other hand we have to live with and work with the aftermath of slavery as a reality. We do not have the luxury of just bringing thought on the matter to an end with a period. As Americans we must remaim aware and able to think about our legacy.

I might be jumping to a conclusion from your picture but I will assume you are white. As a result I will ask you to consider whether you do not want to ask about good from slavery because you do not wish to be reminded of the economic advantages you inherit from slavery. that's a good in your pocket.
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

I'm curious. Since Mormonism was founded on lies, deception, the marrying of young teenagers, and the institutionalization of adultery as polygamy, can we also conclude that nothing good can come from it, especially Utah? After all the twin relics of barbarism were slavery and polygamy.

It seems that Mormons who take pride in their polygamous heritage have a similar problem here.

ETA: I predict that within 5 minutes someone will erroneously conclude I'm making a moral equivalence argument, but what the hell, I'm bored tonight.

ETA 2: Changed "children" to "young teenagers" as children was inaccurate.
Last edited by Guest on Wed May 23, 2012 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Kishkumen »

static wrote:Okay, here's the bottom line.

Slavery was evil and wrong; no one disagrees with that fact. But it happened. We cannot go back in time and prevent it. Why is it so revolting that a descendent of those who were enslaved (read: neither DCP nor Schryver, but an actual African-American) finds something good that came in spite of something evil? Why is it so disgusting for Schryver to commend someone for doing so on his blog? Look guys: nothing mortal is 100% good, and nothing mortal is 100% evil. The world is just not black and white like that. So open your minds a bit chill-out. Damn!

Well, we all know the answer: most people here are so hell-bent on finding any fault with DCP or Schryver that they'll stoop to this closemindedness.


Simon, quit being a dipstick. I would feel the same about this if my own mother were to say what Schryver said. You are the one who is fixated on personalities. Just give it up.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:This is very much in Randy Bott territory, in my opinion. The thing is: there is a subtler undercurrent of racism behind the approval of those kinds of statements. E.g., this whole sort of colonialist thing where they're saying, "Hey, you're better off, since you're not marooned in Africa!" It suggests that they think that descendants of Africa-born slaves are better off today because, hey--*anything* is better that being stuck living in Africa! The problem here being, of course, that it was precisely this sort of view that led to slavery being acceptable in the first place: a kind of colonialist attitude that marginalizes people and places. And bear in mind: no one who makes this argument thinks that Africa is a crummy place to live simply because it's Africa. They think this because of who lives there now, and who lived there historically.


I suspect the same.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_RayAgostini

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _RayAgostini »

Doctor Scratch wrote: The problem here being, of course, that it was precisely this sort of view that led to slavery being acceptable in the first place: a kind of colonialist attitude that marginalizes people and places.


Not really:

Slavery and the rise of capitalism.

This explanation of the rise of Caribbean slavery was pioneered by Eric Williams in his 1943 work, Capitalism and Slavery. Williams outlined the shifts from enslavement of the local Indian populations, to the use of white convict or indentured labour to black slavery. In Williams' words, the origin of black slavery lay with economic, not racial motives: "It had to do not with the colour of the labourer, but the cheapness of the labour".


Eric Williams.

"No good" came out of convict transportation, either:

Convicts and the British colonies in Australia.

Most of the convicts were thieves who had been convicted in the great cities of England. Only those sentenced in Ireland were likely to have been convicted of rural crimes. Transportation was an integral part of the English and Irish systems of punishment. It was a way to deal with increased poverty and the severity of the sentences for larceny. Simple larceny, or robbery, could mean transportation for seven years. Compound larceny - stealing goods worth more than a shilling (about $50 in today's money) - meant death by hanging.


In the mid-1830s only around six per cent of the convict population were 'locked up', the majority working for free settlers and the authorities around the nation. Even so, convicts were often subject to cruelties such as leg-irons and the lash. Places like Port Arthur or Norfolk Island were well known for this.


Another perspective. Did any good come out of the white settlement ("invasion") of Australia?:

White Settlement In Perspective:

It is fashionable in certain quarters to argue that white settlement devastated a utopian Aboriginal society and replaced it with two centuries of racism, murder, oppression and neglect. Those who make such arguments almost always present a sanitised version of traditional Aboriginal society; fail to acknowledge the great developments of white settlement; and judge the past by the standards of the present.

There was nothing utopian about traditional Aboriginal society, which was characterised by tribal warfare, violent punishments, sexism, superstition, and famine. The Aboriginals were essentially a stone age society, failing during a period of 50,000 years to develop any form of writing, agriculture or wheeled transport.

White settlement brought to Australia all the advantages of one of the greatest civilisations in history: democracy, law, philosophy, art, literature, science, technology, agriculture and music. All these factors have been developed over 200 years to produce a nation which is the envy of the world....At the same time it cannot be denied that many Aborigines suffered severely because of white settlement. But it is not acceptable or intellectually honest to judge the actions of the past by the standards of the present. The White settlement of Australia occurred only a few months before the French Revolution, which was, of course, characterised by the bloody murder of hundreds of people simply because of their social status.


As usual, the "scholarly analysis" here on this board takes all sides into consideration, exacting fairness with cartoonist depictions and empty shouts of "racism!!".

But by all means, continue the Peterson/Schryver hatefest.
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