Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

[_Infymus]

This is Dan's full statement. Since everyone here is criticizing him, let's at least examine his full statement:

What are you to MDB, a Seer Stone to Dan Peterson? Translating his words? Peeping into Dan's hat and pulling out a translated version of him?

Dan needs to come here and post. Stop with this watered down crap that isn't Dan.

It's getting ridiculous.

[_Infymus]

I would like to come to the defense of Dr. Daniel Petersen. He is a fine young man. It is the official position of the church that slavery was bad. This we know to be true, for the Lord revealed it to us last week. Tears of joy flowed when we heard this marvelous news. Finally we know what to think about slavery. However, we may now know that slavery was bad, but what the young Dr. Petersen is trying to say is that some good came out of slavery. Just a few weeks ago I spent some time with colleagues watching our local basketball team play in the NBA playoffs. Without slavery, there would be no NBA today. We would not have the joy of watching tall negroes play with a ball. These negroes are paid millions of dollars to entertain us. They would not make that kind of money in Africa, unless they hired child sodiers to dig up blood diamonds. So you see, slavery was bad, really, really bad. But some negroes were blessed by it because today they are Americans instead of Africans. That's all we are trying to say.

Are you touching yourself Packer? Because your pic looks like you are.

[_Infymus]

Look guys: nothing mortal is 100% good, and nothing mortal is 100% evil. The world is just not black and white like that. So open your minds a bit chill-out. Damn!

Well, we all know the answer: most people here are so hell-bent on finding any fault with DCP or Schryver that they'll stoop to this closemindedness.

LOL, this coming from Simon Belmont himself. Should we go back through all of your posts? Do you need to be reminded of yourself?

[_lulu]

This is very much in Randy Bott territory, in my opinion. The thing is: there is a subtler undercurrent of racism behind the approval of those kinds of statements. E.g., this whole sort of colonialist thing where they're saying, "Hey, you're better off, since you're not marooned in Africa!" It suggests that they think that descendants of Africa-born slaves are better off today because, hey--*anything* is better that being stuck living in Africa! The problem here being, of course, that it was precisely this sort of view that led to slavery being acceptable in the first place: a kind of colonialist attitude that marginalizes people and places. And bear in mind: no one who makes this argument thinks that Africa is a crummy place to live simply because it's Africa. They think this because of who lives there now, and who lived there historically.

Well said.

One of the rationalizations for African American slavery was that it gave the slaves the chance to be Christians and thus saved. Looks like Will and Dan haven't wrapped their heads around that one yet.

They could both use a long session with WEB Dubois' the Souls of Black Folk.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

What if the quoted gentleman in question lived in Nairobi? East Africa doesn't seem that bad, non? There are many places in Africa that are as advanced and civilized as the rest of the world.

- VRDRC

[_Kevin Graham]

One of the several problems with that logic is that without the slave trade, Africa might not be in such a depressing state in the first place.

Precisely.

You know this reminds me of something Dan Peterson once said when trying to attribute so many discoveries to "Islam." I pointed out that it wasn't "Islam" that came up with things like Arabic numerals, but rather an Arab who just happened to be Muslim. He said we owe all these discoveries to Islam otherwise we wouldn't have them today. I asked how do you know someone else wouldn't have discovered them since that time"? and he responded "Who are you to say that they would have?"

OK, so applying that same logic, how does Peterson know that blacks are better off today thanks to slavery?

Yes, it is racism, which is nothing short of hypocritical given Dan's love for bigot-baiting. He does precisely the same kinds of things he likes to accuse his enemies. Except it applies more to him than them.

And yes Ray, keep licking their feet and making excuses for them.

[_Yoda]

This is Dan's full statement. Since everyone here is criticizing him, let's at least examine his full statement:

What are you to MDB, a Seer Stone to Dan Peterson? Translating his words? Peeping into Dan's hat and pulling out a translated version of him?

Dan needs to come here and post. Stop with this watered down crap that isn't Dan.

It's getting ridiculous.

How did I translate his words? All I did was quote his entire statement. I have no problem with an author being criticized, but let's at least look at what is being criticized in proper context.

I don't see how I have watered anything down.

Also, I am not stopping Dan from posting here. It is his choice as to whether or not he posts here.

[Guest]

Whether the speaker is Black or white, there is nothing good about slavery PERIOD FULL STOP END OF SENTENCE

I am not aware of anybody here argueing that there is something good about slavery.

see my break down of DCP's blog post &

some positive results did manage to come from it.

That's exactly what liz said although she appears to have now back off from it.

I suppose there is viritue in simplicity.

Yes there is, especially when labeling slavery.

If people were in a quandary about the morality of slavery then the simple statement, it is bad , full stop etc makes sense. On the other hand we have to live with and work with the aftermath of slavery as a reality. We do not have the luxury of just bringing thought on the matter to an end with a period.

I would say the luxury cuts the other way, white folk can talk on and on about turning evil into good, cf Will & Dan

There are somethings that can just be labled bad. Slavery is one of them.

As Americans we must remaim aware and able to think about our legacy.

Why yes we do, but don't delude yourself into thinking something good came from slavery. That thinking about our legacy is 180 degrees off.

I might be jumping to a conclusion from your picture but I will assume you are white. As a result I will ask you to consider whether you do not want to ask about good from slavery because you do not wish to be reminded of the economic advantages you inherit from slavery. that's a good in your pocket.

Quite the opposite, whatever is in my pocket that can or might be attributed to slavery is bad. See the difference?

Do you want to try and peruade me of the good that comes from gay teen suicide?

[_Doctor Scratch]

There was nothing utopian about traditional Aboriginal society, which was characterised by tribal warfare, violent punishments, sexism, superstition, and famine. The Aboriginals were essentially a stone age society, failing during a period of 50,000 years to develop any form of writing, agriculture or wheeled transport.

White settlement brought to Australia all the advantages of one of the greatest civilisations in history: democracy, law, philosophy, art, literature, science, technology, agriculture and music. All these factors have been developed over 200 years to produce a nation which is the envy of the world....

This is Droopy-quality stuff. Citing racist "scholarship" doesn't really help your case, Ray. And I wouldn't deny that economic motives played a big part in the Atlantic slave trade. So did social and cultural attitudes. After all, you aren't likely to make slaves out of people whom you regard as equals.

[_Darth J]

Okay, here's the bottom line.

Slavery was evil and wrong; no one disagrees with that fact.

That's not a fact; it's a value judgment. But you are right that everyone agrees that slavery was evil and wrong. Nobody is ambivalent about slavery.

Except for Mormons in the early Utah territory.

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapte ... nutah.html

And Brigham Young.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Journal_of_Dis ... /10/25#111

The rank, rabid abolitionists, whom I call black-hearted Republicans, have set the whole national fabric on fire. Do you know this, Democrats? They have kindled the fire that is raging now from the north to the south, and from the south to the north. I am no abolitionist, neither am I a proslavery man; I hate some of their principles and especially some of their conduct, as I do the gates of hell. The Southerners make the negroes, and the Northerners worship them; this is all the difference between slaveholders. and abolitionists.
.....

I am neither an abolitionist nor a pro-slavery man. If I could have been influenced by private injury to choose one side in preference to the other, I should certainly be against the pro-slavery side of the question, for it was pro-slavery men that pointed the bayonet at me and my brethren in Missouri, and said, "Damn you we will kill you." I have not much love for them, only in the Gospel. I would cause them to repent, if I could, and make them good men and a good community. I have no fellowship for their avarice, blindness, and ungodly actions. To be great, is to be good before the Heavens and before all good men. I will not fellowship the wicked in their sins, so help me God.

Millenial Star, 25:787

Ham will continue to be the servant of servants, as the Lord decreed, until the curse is removed. Will the present struggle [the Civil War] free the slave? No; but they are now wasting away the black race by thousands? Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed. Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot. Yet our Christian brethren think that they are going to overthrow the sentence of the Almighty upon the seed of Ham. They cannot do that, though they may kill them by thousands and tens of thousands.

Oh, and the LDS Church itself, which accepted a slave named Green Flake as a tithing payment.

But other than that........

But it happened. We cannot go back in time and prevent it.

And if you want an example of letting go of past wrongs and not using claims of persecution as a social crutch, just look to the Mormons.

Why is it so revolting that a descendent of those who were enslaved (read: neither DCP nor Schryver, but an actual African-American) finds something good that came in spite of something evil?

See: Genetic fallacy

Why is it so disgusting for Schryver to commend someone for doing so on his blog?

Yeah! And why is it so disgusting for people who have been born and raised LDS and have gone on missions and been married in the temple and descended from pioneer stock (read: neither outsiders nor career anti-Mormons, but actual Mormons) to share their opinions that Mormonism is a false religion, and the bases for that opinion?

Look guys: nothing mortal is 100% good, and nothing mortal is 100% evil. The world is just not black and white like that. So open your minds a bit chill-out. Damn!

Well, we all know the answer: most people here are so hell-bent on finding any fault with DCP or Schryver that they'll stoop to this closemindedness.

So the world is not black and white, but everyone who takes exception to Schryver's or Peterson's opinions is an enemy.