The cost of leaving

[_Samantabhadra]

Okay Tobin, please allow me to rephrase again, if you don't mind.

You've mentioned that the incorporeal being you saw had certain particular characteristics. What were those characteristics?

Please keep in mind, in the Hebrew Bible Yahweh almost always appears in a non-human form. And standard Christian exegesis is that those parts where Yahweh is described corporeally are to be taken metaphorically or allegorically; God does not literally have a bosom, etc.

And why don't you accept the existence of incorporeal beings apart from God? In fact you've already indicated that you accept the existence of at least one other incorporeal being: "the devil." Do you believe in the Devil, but not in demons? Do you believe in angels? How do you know that what you saw was God, and not an angel?

Do you at least understand this line of questioning?

[_Stormy Waters]

Is your problem that she expects you to keep paying tithing? What exactly is she expecting you to do beyond attending sacrament meeting? It sounds to me like there might be a compromise here somewhere that would allow you to keep your marriage intact if that is your desire.

She made it clear that I had to be a Full TBM for her to come back. No faking. No going through the motions.

[_Tobin]

Okay Tobin, please allow me to rephrase again, if you don't mind.

You've mentioned that the incorporeal being you saw had certain particular characteristics. What were those characteristics?

Please keep in mind, in the Hebrew Bible Yahweh almost always appears in a non-human form. And standard Christian exegesis is that those parts where Yahweh is described corporeally are to be taken metaphorically or allegorically; God does not literally have a bosom, etc.

And why don't you accept the existence of incorporeal beings apart from God? In fact you've already indicated that you accept the existence of at least one other incorporeal being: "the devil." Do you believe in the Devil, but not in demons? Do you believe in angels? How do you know that what you saw was God, and not an angel?

Do you at least understand this line of questioning?

I'll repeat it once more. I'm not offering my experience as proof as to whether there is a God, what his or her attributes are, or the exact details of what happened, when it happened, and with whom I was with when it happened. Those details are deeply personal, private and important to me and won't be subjected to scrutiny here nor ever.

The thesis of Mormonism is that there is a a God, who in his infinite wisdom decided to appear to a Joseph Smith (as well as others including myself) and allow people to have a firsthand experience with this being. Out of those encounters, these people recorded their experiences with this God which many take to be the scriptures. Now, if the scriptures the Joseph Smith reveal help you reach that God, experience that God, and validate your belief in that God and what is described in the scriptures as being true - then you should be Mormon (or whatever faith got you to that point). If not, then do and believe whatever you feel best reflects your own experiences.

[_Chap]

I'm not offering my experience as proof as to whether there is a God, what his or her attributes are, or the exact details of what happened, when it happened, and with whom I was with when it happened. Those details are deeply personal, private and important to me and won't be subjected to scrutiny here nor ever.

That's fine. Say nothing about it. That is your right and privilege.

But you cannot reasonably take that attitude and also play the "I have talked to God and if you haven't done it too, then you really need to, then you'll see I'm right" routine.

Well, I grant that there is nothing physically preventing you from doing that: but don't expect much respect for it.

Ludwig Wittgenstein once wrote "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

Try it on for size.

[_Maxrep]

I think far too much credit is being given to the idea that a marriage can suffer failure due to Mormon beliefs/ celestial vows. It is true that a change of faith(especially from the husband) can be a final straw, but the crux of problem does not hinge on the eternal expectations of LDS vows, beliefs, etc. The problem, at the core, is simply a social one(familial relationships included).

From my perspective, the focus needs to shift from doctrine to the couple in crisis's family tree, as well as their location. How did Mormonism ever get off the ground? Location, location, location. Utah pioneers allowed a doomed religion to prosper due to isolation from outside ideas/rationale. If the couple in question is located in an area with a high population of LDS, spousal loss of faith carries dramatic social consequences.

Take a wife in Utah, who's husband has abandoned Mormonism. What percentage of incoming phone calls come from members? What percentage of her childrens friends are members? Does this couple even have dinner with other couples who are not members? From the wifes perspective, her entire social existance is now imposed upon due to a husbands loss of faith.

Family trees are quite important here too. Do both the husband and wife have active sets of parents? Active siblings? Are these family members close by? If family are out of state, less imposing pressure is brought to bear on the couple in question. However, when family and parents are close by or in the same ward/stake, the burden of a spouses faith loss is far more pronounced.

If we were to picture an LDS women living with a faithless husband in Vermont, would the situation be different? I think so! This couple likely has friends outside the church who couldn't care less about the couples mismatch of faith. Their children likely have a majority of friends who are not LDS. The bottom line is that this woman's day to day social interactions have little if anything to do with her husbands religious views. Lets say that she is a convert as well. Bonus! No parental baggage or pressure from siblings.

So, when comparing a tightly tied in wife in Utah, with the whole tbm family tree, and in state relatives and all, we get one picture of a spouses life day in and day out. If we contrast that scenario against the convert wife in Vermont, a much different reality presents itself. We could say that the belief level of the Utah wife and the Vermont wife are identical. Though the belief commitments are the same, the real world impact that both of these women will experience from a non believing spouse, are worlds apart. This is the crux of the problem. The doctrine never really was the central issue. Day to day interactions with people are the issue.

[_BartBurk]

Is your problem that she expects you to keep paying tithing? What exactly is she expecting you to do beyond attending sacrament meeting? It sounds to me like there might be a compromise here somewhere that would allow you to keep your marriage intact if that is your desire.

She made it clear that I had to be a Full TBM for her to come back. No faking. No going through the motions.

Then you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The only hope is for her Bishop to straighten her out.

[_Tobin]

I'm not offering my experience as proof as to whether there is a God, what his or her attributes are, or the exact details of what happened, when it happened, and with whom I was with when it happened. Those details are deeply personal, private and important to me and won't be subjected to scrutiny here nor ever.

But you cannot reasonably take that attitude and also play the "I have talked to God and if you haven't done it too, then you really need to, then you'll see I'm right" routine.

Then you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm saying you should do it for yourself and make your own determinations. The point is I'm encouraging you to do it because there is a God. What happens after that is of little concern to me - whether you agree with my positions or not.

[_Chap]

... I'm saying you should do it [speak with God] for yourself and make your own determinations. The point is I'm encouraging you to do it because there is a God. What happens after that is of little concern to me - whether you agree with my positions or not.

Since you give not the slightest indication of how anyone can tell whether or not they have had the experience which you believe you have had, how it happened, or what it was like, you might as well be saying:

"Speak with BLOOFYPANTS for yourself. I'm encouraging you to do it because there is a BLOOFYPANTS. What happens after that is of little concern to me."

I predict a low positive response rate to your suggestion.

[_Stormy Waters]

I think far too much credit is being given to the idea that a marriage can suffer failure due to Mormon beliefs/ celestial vows. It is true that a change of faith(especially from the husband) can be a final straw, but the crux of problem does not hinge on the eternal expectations of LDS vows, beliefs, etc. The problem, at the core, is simply a social one(familial relationships included).

You are aware that Mormon leaders have said things such as this right?

"That gives me a lot of comfort at my young age when we have been married for 65 years, and I think that could come to an end. Then I realize that the gospel is true, and it will never come to an end. I have been very careful, and am very careful, to treat my wife with that respect and reverence that is due her in performing that thing that is of most worth for a woman in this life to live the gospel, to be the wife and the mother of the children of a worthy holder of the priesthood."

Boyd K. Packer.

[_Tobin]

... I'm saying you should do it [speak with God] for yourself and make your own determinations. The point is I'm encouraging you to do it because there is a God. What happens after that is of little concern to me - whether you agree with my positions or not.

Since you give not the slightest indication of how anyone can tell whether or not they have had the experience which you believe you have had, how it happened, or what it was like, you might as well be saying:

"Speak with BLOOFYPANTS for yourself. I'm encouraging you to do it because there is a BLOOFYPANTS. What happens after that is of little concern to me."

I predict a low positive response rate to your suggestion.

Then don't. It's your choice. But I believe you are mistaken in your assertion that God is just a fiction that you can avoid. You will ultimately see and speak with God. I'd just encourage you to seek him and speak with him now because it can be a blessing in your life.