Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

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_marg
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _marg »

Darth J wrote:You still don't get it. There is no foundation to the statement that the object they were shown appeared ancient. They had no way of knowing what "ancient plates" would have looked like, and their testimonial does not say how they arrived at the conclusion that this object "appeared ancient." No foundation = not evidence.


I disagree with you on this Darth, I think Stem worded it just fine. If there weren't so many people attacking and harassing him unjustifiably I wouldn't say anything. If you are going to score any points they should be legit in my opinion.

Assuming the 8 were shown plates (and I don't think they necessarily were) and assuming they signed the testimony in Book of Mormon ..then it is not unreasonable to assume their opinion was the plates were ancient..as stem said to their untrained eyes. They can form that opinion without expertise to do so.

Stem has acknowledged that their opinion does not mean that assuming they saw plates, that those plates were ancient.
_Darth J
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _Darth J »

marg wrote:
Darth J wrote:You still don't get it. There is no foundation to the statement that the object they were shown appeared ancient. They had no way of knowing what "ancient plates" would have looked like, and their testimonial does not say how they arrived at the conclusion that this object "appeared ancient." No foundation = not evidence.


I disagree with you on this Darth, I think Stem worded it just fine. If there weren't so many people attacking and harassing him unjustifiably I wouldn't say anything. If you are going to score any points they should be legit in my opinion.

Assuming the 8 were shown plates (and I don't think they necessarily were) and assuming they signed the testimony in Book of Mormon ..then it is not unreasonable to assume their opinion was the plates were ancient..as stem said to their untrained eyes. They can form that opinion without expertise to do so.

Stem has acknowledged that their opinion does not mean that assuming they saw plates, that those plates were ancient.


Marg, if they have no basis for their opinion on a matter outside the scope of their knowledge, that opinion is meaningless.

But if you have any recent CT scans of yourself, I'd be happy to render my opinion about the state of your health if you email them to me. After all, I can form that opinion without expertise to do so.

If you're too busy for that, then I'm also perfectly happy to share my opinion on the interpretation of any Greek manuscripts that Kishkumen might be trying to understand.
_marg
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _marg »

Darth J wrote:Marg, if they have no basis for their opinion on a matter outside the scope of their knowledge, that opinion is meaningless.


Sure if there is no other data to support their opinion that the plates were ancient and they lack the expertise to evaluate, their opinion is meaningless. But Stem has acknowledged that.

But if you have any recent CT scans of yourself, I'd be happy to render my opinion about the state of your health if you email them to me. After all, I can form that opinion without expertise to do so.


As I said Stem acknowledged their lack of expertise.

The point is you said he still doesn't get it based on his comment. I think he does get it.
_Chap
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _Chap »

marg wrote:... their opinion is meaningless. But Stem has acknowledged that ...


So what more is there for him to say? Yet the posts keep popping up.

Fortunately I no longer have to read them.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _Darth J »

marg wrote:
Darth J wrote:Marg, if they have no basis for their opinion on a matter outside the scope of their knowledge, that opinion is meaningless.


Sure if there is no other data to support their opinion that the plates were ancient and they lack the expertise to evaluate, their opinion is meaningless. But Stem has acknowledged that.


And there is no other such data, but stemelbow is continuing to assert that the testimonial of the Eight Witnesses is circumstantial evidence of the Book of Mormon being true.

But if you have any recent CT scans of yourself, I'd be happy to render my opinion about the state of your health if you email them to me. After all, I can form that opinion without expertise to do so.


As I said Stem acknowledged their lack of expertise.

The point is you said he still doesn't get it based on his comment. I think he does get it.


If he gets the point, why is he still asserting that the unfounded statement of Joseph Smith's dad et al. is circumstantial evidence that the Book of Mormon is true?
_marg
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _marg »

Darth,

I agree with you that Stem thinks the witness statements in the Book of Mormon gives support for J. Smith's claims..and he thinks it is strong support/evidence. He does understand though that they lack the expertise to determine if the plates were ancient and expertise to determine and/or know if Smith actually translated plates. He also I believe has indicated that he appreciates data/evidence on its own may not be useful but along with other evidence helps to support a best fit theory. Of course though he is not very objective in evaluating the evidence.

If he gets the point, why is he still asserting that the unfounded statement of Joseph Smith's dad et al. is circumstantial evidence that the Book of Mormon is true?


He is not objective and does not evaluate the evidence well. That's no surprise coming from a believing Mormon.

Here is something Craig Criddle has written on evaluating evidence:

http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

The formulation of evidence-based narratives is subject to many kinds of uncertainty, starting with the facts themselves. Measurements and records have limited accuracy. The material world decomposes, so information is lost over time. And then there's the human factor. Evidence can be mishandled or destroyed. Memory and perceptions are fallible and can be manipulated. Eyewitness accounts are much less reliable than generally believed.

Uncertainties force us to deal in probabilities in assessing past and present reality. The challenge comes in assigning values to those probabilities. For example, how likely is it that Joseph Smith spoke with God and translated The Book of Mormon from plates of gold? Devoted and thoughtful Mormons will feel that they have adequately reviewed the evidence and are justified in believing to a probability of near 100% that these events occurred. Virtually all non-Mormons who have reviewed the same evidence conclude that the probability is close to 0%. We can learn a lot from a careful examination of the reasoning processes that different groups use to answer the same question.
>>>
We are far from rational information processors. We have biases and suffer from cognitive dissonance induced denial. The best defense against denial and other biases is the kind of peer review used by the scientific community. The idea is to find a group of well-informed individuals who can act as an "objective" forum of critics -- the larger and more diverse, the better. That is because a diverse group will tend to spot, critique and nullify each other's error and bias, while drawing attention to other relevant information.

Scientific inquiry is like a dot-to-dot puzzle, where the dots themselves have to be uncovered in some way. Each dot is a piece of evidence or data. The idea is to reveal as many dots as possible, then connect them as simply as possible. Data that seem clear are dark dots, whereas uncertain data are faint. When only a few faint dots are available, the picture is unclear. But as the dots accumulate, and become darker, a relatively reliable pattern often emerges. The more testable the pattern and more replicable the results of experiments designed to test it, the more reliable the pattern is. The peer review process seeks to ensure that the dots are shaded and located correctly and then connected using short straight lines so that the overall picture is interpreted correctly.


Using Craig's dot analogy, you look at the witness statements as one dot shaded in support of a best fit theory of a hoax and as not being evidence at all in support of Smith's claims to ancient plates, assuming he actually had plates which is still debatable. He looks at the witness statements in the Book of Mormon as darkly shaded in support of Smith's claims.

I agree with your evaluation.
_sock puppet
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _sock puppet »

Was the testimony of any of the 'witnesses' to the plates subjected to cross-examination by a skilled trial attorney?

No?

Then we do not know if the testimonies are genuine (or just made up by JSJr) or have adequate foundation (they had an adequate vantage point and background to evaluate what their 'testimony' claims to be) to be considered evidence. Forensically, the 'witnesses' are weak if not non-existent as evidence, and lame as proof of the existence of plates, ancient or not. As Chap has pointed out, they might not be anything but type set from Mormons.
_marg
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _marg »

If only Smith had hired a skilled trial attorney who testified to cross examining the witnesses..skeptics wouldn't be skeptical.
_sock puppet
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _sock puppet »

marg wrote:If only Smith had hired a skilled trial attorney who testified to cross examining the witnesses..skeptics wouldn't be skeptical.

I think we skeptics would yet be skeptical, but a ver batim transcript of such a Q & A would have added to the credence of the 'testimonies'.

Rarely do two people each telling the truth of a similar event, witnessed from even the same vantage point and with the same background to understand what they experienced, tell the event the same way. Different nuances, word choices, details, etc. With the witnesses, the 3 and the 8, we have them purportedly having each subscribed to a single version or account. Not quite the same as if each had himself composed his own testimony. Cf. the differing accounts of OC, EHS, her father and her brother about the rock in the hat translation mechanics. Each is slightly different, adding different details and credibility enhanced by the fact that each composed his or her own version, and many of the same, salient details are in found in each.

In short, the testimony of the 3 and also of the 8 are 'canned'. Who authored them? Did each of the subscribers sign his name (if in fact that ever happened) to it without any reservation, suggestion or hesitation? It has the appearance of a 'canned' version foisted upon the signatory witnesses.
_marg
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _marg »

Agreed. It would be nice if a competent individual had cross examined them and if they had each given statements in their own words ...but one can't dismiss their statements on that basis alone, that those things didn't happen.
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