Helping Wade Englund's Belief

[_Kishkumen]

Contrary to the initial defensive reaction that true believers tend to have, one does not have to reject belief in God or spiritual experiences in general to recognize the fatal flaws inherent in Moroni's promise.

Good stuff. I especially like the marketing/sales connection. Moroni's Promise is basically a cheap salesman's tool, good for selling cars, snake-oil, or treasure-hunting services. I once wrote a post on Equality's blog breaking down the mechanics of Moroni's Promise as a high-pressure sales technique:

Moroni's Pitch

-JV

Excellent blog post. Thanks for sharing it with us!

[_Darth J]

Surely we can at least agree that the LDS Church does a lot of good humanitarian work, can't we? Well, as we learn from modern (i.e., 169 years ago) revelation, "truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it." So we have one sphere dealing with what the Church spends on humanitarian aid, and another sphere for what the Church spends on its business ventures. Let's compare those two spheres, and we will limit sphere #2 to City Creek Center.

The first question would naturally be, how much did the Church spend on City Creek Center? Well, it's just the darndest thing. Media outlets that are owned by the LDS Church can't quite seem to get their stories straight.

From KSL, a church-owned media outlet, on March 1, 2012:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1942818 ... featured-1

The Salt Lake Chamber says $5 billion have gone into the revitalization of downtown Salt Lake City, and a major part of that is soon to open in the new City Creek Center.

From KSL, a church-owned media outlet, on March 17, 2011:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14763302

In his role as presiding bishop, Bishop Burton handles "mostly the business affairs of the church," including humanitarian aid and the development of the $1.5 billion City Creek Center, which is about a year from completion.

From KSL, a church-owned media outlet, on March 16, 2011:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=14760340

When the City Creek Center opens next year, it will have been one of the most heavily touted and anticipated retail developments in Utah history.

For that reason and more, the estimated $1 billion mixed-use project is also one of the most unique projects as well, according to the chief operating officer of the company who will be accountable for running it.

From the Deseret News, a Church-owned media outlet, on December 15, 2010:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... nager.html

"There are a lot of people who are watching what's going on at City Creek," Wardell said. "Part of what drew me to Salt Lake City is knowing that there is so much interest in this project."

The project, estimated to cost $1 billion, will cover three downtown blocks with 6 acres of landscaped open space, including man-made streams representing the historic south fork of City Creek that ran through downtown when pioneers first arrived in 1847.

From the Deseret News, a Church-owned media outlet, on September 13, 2010:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7000 ... -2011.html

We are standing in one of the four penthouse units that make up the top, or 20th, floor of The Regent at City Creek, the centerpiece condominium building of the massive City Creek Center project that is, believe it or not, closer to being finished than getting started.

After two years of steady progress, in less than a year from now, knock on steel, The Regent should be home to downtown dwellers in 150 condo units, providing they sell them all, which is looking more and more probable.

For years, as the condos have risen at the edges of the $2 billion, two-block downtown face-lift, the debate has been whether Salt Lake City could possibly turn into Manhattan West, with people residing in high rises next to the train lines.

From the Deseret News, a church-owned media outlet, on November 4, 2009:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... -Main.html

City Creek Reserve is spending more than $1 million a day on construction, and the project ultimately will cost around $3 billion, said Chris Redgrave, a KSL executive who also chairs the Salt Lake Chamber's Can-Do Coalition, which is looking for ways to jump-start the downtown economy.

From the Deseret News, a Church-owned media outlet, on April 12, 2009:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7052 ... onomy.html

It is an otherwise unremarkable scene except for one thing: In a down economy, the $1.5 billion City Creek Center is the last of the large, mixed-use projects still going up around the valley.

So depending on when you ask how much this wonderful and marvelous upscale mall cost, it might be $1 billion, or $1.5 billion, or $3 billion, or $5 billion. The details of the story keep changing over time. You know, like the various accounts of Joseph Smith's First Vision.

Okay, but what about the Church's spending on humanitarian aid? Well, according to the Deseret News, which is owned by the LDS Church, "since 1984, the LDS Church has donated nearly $750 million in cash and goods to people in need in more than 150 countries."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6351 ... .html?pg=2

This was in December 2005. Let's just roughly calculate that.

We'll say 365 days a year for 22 years from 1984 through 2006 (I know there are leap years, but this is a rough estimate).

365 x 22 = 8030 days

750,000,000 / 8030 = 93,399.75

Let's round up to $93,400. That's roughly what the Church averaged to spending per day on humanitarian aid over the course of 22 years, according to Richard C. Edgley of the Presiding Bishopric. The Church also said, in one of its statements about its favorite mall, that the construction of City Creek Center is over $1,000,000 per day:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... -Main.html

$1,000,000/day > $93,400/day

But what if we go with the Church's statement that City Creek is going to cost around $3 billion dollars? Well, that would mean that this mall cost more than 3 times what a member of the Presiding Bishopric says the Church spent in humanitarian aid in two decades. And that's without even discussing the Church's other business ventures.

Business ventures like, for example, buying a motel in Ogden, Utah where poor people were living, and kicking them out right before Christmas so that the motel could be demolished and remain vacant while the Church tried to think of what commercial use they might have for the land. http://www.standard.net/topics/lds-chur ... oses-doors

In summary, we see that the sphere for an upscale retail establishment in downtown Salt Lake City is orders of magnitude bigger than the sphere for humanitarian aid. We see that from the Church's own figures in media outlets that the Church owns.

3 Nephi 13:21

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

[_brade]

Surely we can at least agree that the LDS Church does a lot of good humanitarian work, can't we? Well, as we learn from modern (i.e., 169 years ago) revelation, "truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it." So we have one sphere dealing with what the Church spends on humanitarian aid, and another sphere for what the Church spends on its business ventures. Let's compare those two spheres, and we will limit sphere #2 to City Creek Center.

The first question would naturally be, how much did the Church spend on City Creek Center? Well, it's just the darndest thing. Media outlets that are owned by the LDS Church can't quite seem to get their stories straight.

From KSL, a church-owned media outlet, on March 1, 2012:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1942818 ... featured-1

The Salt Lake Chamber says $5 billion have gone into the revitalization of downtown Salt Lake City, and a major part of that is soon to open in the new City Creek Center.

From KSL, a church-owned media outlet, on March 17, 2011:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14763302

In his role as presiding bishop, Bishop Burton handles "mostly the business affairs of the church," including humanitarian aid and the development of the $1.5 billion City Creek Center, which is about a year from completion.

From KSL, a church-owned media outlet, on March 16, 2011:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=14760340

When the City Creek Center opens next year, it will have been one of the most heavily touted and anticipated retail developments in Utah history.

For that reason and more, the estimated $1 billion mixed-use project is also one of the most unique projects as well, according to the chief operating officer of the company who will be accountable for running it.

From the Deseret News, a Church-owned media outlet, on December 15, 2010:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... nager.html

"There are a lot of people who are watching what's going on at City Creek," Wardell said. "Part of what drew me to Salt Lake City is knowing that there is so much interest in this project."

The project, estimated to cost $1 billion, will cover three downtown blocks with 6 acres of landscaped open space, including man-made streams representing the historic south fork of City Creek that ran through downtown when pioneers first arrived in 1847.

From the Deseret News, a Church-owned media outlet, on September 13, 2010:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7000 ... -2011.html

We are standing in one of the four penthouse units that make up the top, or 20th, floor of The Regent at City Creek, the centerpiece condominium building of the massive City Creek Center project that is, believe it or not, closer to being finished than getting started.

After two years of steady progress, in less than a year from now, knock on steel, The Regent should be home to downtown dwellers in 150 condo units, providing they sell them all, which is looking more and more probable.

For years, as the condos have risen at the edges of the $2 billion, two-block downtown face-lift, the debate has been whether Salt Lake City could possibly turn into Manhattan West, with people residing in high rises next to the train lines.

From the Deseret News, a church-owned media outlet, on November 4, 2009:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... -Main.html

City Creek Reserve is spending more than $1 million a day on construction, and the project ultimately will cost around $3 billion, said Chris Redgrave, a KSL executive who also chairs the Salt Lake Chamber's Can-Do Coalition, which is looking for ways to jump-start the downtown economy.

From the Deseret News, a Church-owned media outlet, on April 12, 2009:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7052 ... onomy.html

It is an otherwise unremarkable scene except for one thing: In a down economy, the $1.5 billion City Creek Center is the last of the large, mixed-use projects still going up around the valley.

So depending on when you ask how much this wonderful and marvelous upscale mall cost, it might be $1 billion, or $1.5 billion, or $3 billion, or $5 billion. The details of the story keep changing over time. You know, like the various accounts of Joseph Smith's First Vision.

Okay, but what about the Church's spending on humanitarian aid? Well, according to the Deseret News, which is owned by the LDS Church, "since 1984, the LDS Church has donated nearly $750 million in cash and goods to people in need in more than 150 countries."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6351 ... .html?pg=2

This was in December 2005. Let's just roughly calculate that.

We'll say 365 days a year for 22 years from 1984 through 2006 (I know there are leap years, but this is a rough estimate).

365 x 22 = 8030 days

750,000,000 / 8030 = 93,399.75

Let's round up to $93,400. That's roughly what the Church averaged to spending per day on humanitarian aid over the course of 22 years, according to Richard C. Edgley of the Presiding Bishopric. The Church also said, in one of its statements about its favorite mall, that the construction of City Creek Center is over $1,000,000 per day:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... -Main.html

$1,000,000/day > $93,400/day

But what if we go with the Church's statement that City Creek is going to cost around $3 billion dollars? Well, that would mean that this mall cost more than 3 times what a member of the Presiding Bishopric says the Church spent in humanitarian aid in two decades. And that's without even discussing the Church's other business ventures.

Business ventures like, for example, buying a motel in Ogden, Utah where poor people were living, and kicking them out right before Christmas so that the motel could be demolished and remain vacant while the Church tried to think of what commercial use they might have for the land. http://www.standard.net/topics/lds-chur ... oses-doors

In summary, we see that the sphere for an upscale retail establishment in downtown Salt Lake City is orders of magnitude bigger than the sphere for humanitarian aid. We see that from the Church's own figures in media outlets that the Church owns.

3 Nephi 13:21

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

[_Buffalo]

I guess Wade just isn't willing to humble himself and be instructed. Pride goeth before the fall.

[_Rufus]

I vote for total lack of confidence in Thomas S. Monson and motion that he be removed from the First Presidency and stripped of all his so-called powers of the holy apostleship.

The man is nothing but a greeting card salesman. He has no special power. He continues to hide up the lies of Mormonism simply to protect their office and priviledges they enjoy while they milk the church purse strings.

I am honored to deny Thomas S. Monson and proclaim with an open voice that he is a false prophet and I would raise my arm to the square and rebuke him to his face -- and laugh -- and surely I would get him angry. Grant me 2 mintutes with Tommy and I will stir him up to such anger he'd probably drop dead of a heart attack.



I mock the prophet!

Paul O

What about the ears? He can wiggle his ears, and in my book, that is one hell of a Special Gift.