madeleine wrote: Christian belief (all Christians as far as I know) believe God creates as a whole person, body and soul, together. There is no such thing for us as a body without a soul. As has already been stated, Catholic belief is that the soul is created at conception (not birth).
No the Catholic church does not definitively declare a human soul is created at conception, it is quite clear in stating we can not know when a soul is created.
From then Cardinal Ratzinger in INSTRUCTION ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE IN ITS ORIGIN AND ON THE DIGNITY OF PROCREATION REPLIES TO CERTAIN QUESTIONS OF THE DAY
This teaching remains valid and is further confirmed, if confirmation were needed, by recent findings of human biological science which recognize that in the zygote* resulting from fertilization the biological identity of a new human individual is already constituted. Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.(26)
madeleine wrote: Christian belief (all Christians as far as I know) believe God creates as a whole person, body and soul, together. There is no such thing for us as a body without a soul. As has already been stated, Catholic belief is that the soul is created at conception (not birth).
No the Catholic church does not definitively declare a human soul is created at conception, it is quite clear in stating we can not know when a soul is created.
From then Cardinal Ratzinger in INSTRUCTION ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE IN ITS ORIGIN AND ON THE DIGNITY OF PROCREATION REPLIES TO CERTAIN QUESTIONS OF THE DAY
This teaching remains valid and is further confirmed, if confirmation were needed, by recent findings of human biological science which recognize that in the zygote* resulting from fertilization the biological identity of a new human individual is already constituted. Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.(26)
? That says clearly to me, the soul is present at the first appearance of human life. Also, the CCC:
1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good"
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
madeleine wrote:How are souls not created equally?
I think divine equality is a concept humans create to explain the apparent inequality in persons. It seems to me that if god is creating diverse souls, to create one that has less integrity than another, or has a laziness trait, that would make them not very equal.
If a soul can exist outside of its body.....between death and the resurrection, then body and spirit as one incorporate essence is confusing.
Last edited by Guest on Sun May 27, 2012 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
madeleine wrote:How are souls not created equally?
I think divine equality is concept humans create to explain the apparent inequality in persons. It seems to me that if god is creating diverse souls, to create one that has less integrity than another, or has a laziness trait, that would make them not very equal.
If a soul can exist outside of its body.....between death and the resurrection, then body and spirit as one incorporate essence is confusing.
Perhaps it isn't understood, from a Christian POV, there is no inequality. All people possess an inherent dignity, that is part of who they are, as God created them. From conception to grave, from the most pure to the most violent criminal. Christians are called to see everyone through the eyes of Jesus Christ. Christ died for ALL. No one is without sin.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
Aristotle Smith wrote:There are two main Christian positions on this, though all reject a pre-mortal existence.
Option #1, Creationism: This has nothing to do with the creation of the Earth. The idea is that the soul is created by God at the same time as the body is created by one's parents. God then places the soul in the body at either the time of birth or the time of birth, the time of conception, or something in between.
Option #2, Tradicianism: See wiki entry. The basic idea is that both the soul and the body are created by the parents at the same time. In simple terms, your soul is derived from your parents' souls. While this position probably strikes most as odd, it does have several positive things going for it from an orthodox Christian point of view. For example, original sin and our sinful nature become easy to explain, you simply inherit it from your parents. It also gets God out of the business of creating souls, which makes free will much more easy to explain as God is no longer creating and presumably foreordaining your soul.
I agree with others that the LDS view while solving certain problems, tends to just kick the can down the road. Instead of asking questions about souls, one has to start asking about intelligences.
Hi Aristotle, I've had a few go-rounds in the past over on MADB on this subject, The genesis of the soul. I agree, that's exactly what it does, just adds another step to locating where the soul got its birth.
I hadn't heard of #2, But still, I keep coming back to.....unless the soul is personally responsible for creating its own personality traits.....which it can't, it can never be held accountable for the hand it was dealt.
Aristotle Smith wrote:There are two main Christian positions on this, though all reject a pre-mortal existence.
Option #1, Creationism: This has nothing to do with the creation of the Earth. The idea is that the soul is created by God at the same time as the body is created by one's parents. God then places the soul in the body at either the time of birth or the time of birth, the time of conception, or something in between.
Option #2, Tradicianism: See wiki entry. The basic idea is that both the soul and the body are created by the parents at the same time. In simple terms, your soul is derived from your parents' souls. While this position probably strikes most as odd, it does have several positive things going for it from an orthodox Christian point of view. For example, original sin and our sinful nature become easy to explain, you simply inherit it from your parents. It also gets God out of the business of creating souls, which makes free will much more easy to explain as God is no longer creating and presumably foreordaining your soul.
I agree with others that the LDS view while solving certain problems, tends to just kick the can down the road. Instead of asking questions about souls, one has to start asking about intelligences.
Hi Aristotle, I've had a few go-rounds in the past over on MADB on this subject, The genesis of the soul. I agree, that's exactly what it does, just adds another step to locating where the soul got its birth.
I hadn't heard of #2, But still, I keep coming back to.....unless the soul is personally responsible for creating its own personality traits.....which it can't, it can never be held accountable for the hand it was dealt.
tana, we've always existed, as 'souls'. There was no creation of our souls. That's the one truth JSJr actually figured out and shared with us. Correspondingly, there will be no end or disintegration of the soul. We're stuck with who we are. Live with it--forever--well, at least until we shuck off this mortal coil--when there will be nothing.
Last edited by Guest on Sun May 27, 2012 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
The creation of the soul is only of true interest in perhaps informing us of what might yet happen in the future to us. Nothing. So how/when we were created is of no use whatsoever.
café crema wrote: I don't see LDS theory explaining the paradox, as a matter of fact I see it complicating it with the eternal intelligences and what ever it is that they bring to the personality table. And it seems even more troublesome in the case of sociopaths. How does a sociopath mind develop in the preexistence, how is the sociopath able to willfully develop a sociopath mind right there in front of Heavenly Father? I also don't see how the LDS theory does a better job of addressing a sociopaths accountability???
I've never read any theological explanation for unique individual identities and personalities nor have I seen any indication that the soul is responsible for personality and identity. My guess is that in general Catholics would see personality and identity deriving from a combination of genetics and experience. As for ensoulment, the Catholic church has never taken a position on when that occurs, though it has always (for the most part) considered human life to begin at conception.
CC, thanks for the post. I guess this is the main reason I choose 'oneness theory' (Buddhism).... Because of the paradox I see in locating a genesis of the soul.
sock puppet wrote:tana, we've always existed, as 'souls'. There was no creation of our souls. That's the one truth JSJr actually figured out and shared with us. Correspondingly, there will be no end or disintegration of the soul. We're stuck with who we are. Live with it--forever--well, at least until we shuck off this mortal coil--when there will be nothing.
Sock, I'm thinking, death of the ego might be my equal to your 'nothing'. Can you work with that?
This teaching remains valid and is further confirmed, if confirmation were needed, by recent findings of human biological science which recognize that in the zygote* resulting from fertilization the biological identity of a new human individual is already constituted. Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason [b]a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life[/b]: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.(26)
? That says clearly to me, the soul is present at the first appearance of human life. Also, the CCC:
1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good"
The phrase "A personal presence" is used instead of the word "soul" for a reason, The Magisterum has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature. Does God create a soul for a 4 week old embryo that is so genetically deficient that it can't create a human body capable of even making it through a pregnancy and is spontaneously aborted? The Church doesn't know and so doesn't say that a soul is created at conception. And that in no way affects the abortion debate, the Church does definitively declare abortion is a mortal sin at any stage of development even without complete knowledge.