Non Mormon, Christian POV on pre-existence

[_madeleine]

The phrase "A personal presence" is used instead of the word "soul" for a reason, The Magisterum has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature. Does God create a soul for a 4 week old embryo that is so genetically deficient that it can't create a human body capable of even making it through a pregnancy and is spontaneously aborted? The Church doesn't know and so doesn't say that a soul is created at conception. And that in no way affects the abortion debate, the Church does definitively declare abortion is a mortal sin at any stage of development even without complete knowledge.

I see your point.

[_Dantana]

Actually no, I'm not getting it. If the soul doesn't possess any unique to itself personality traits, what distinguishes one from another? And, what exactly is god testing and rating?

Well the soul would be taken together with the body (where personality comes from) forming a unique individual. The resulting individual could be "tested" but honestly I've never really been taught that the purpose of this life is for God to test us, that it can be testing yes but that is not the purpose of this life. It certainly wasn't in the beginning.

It sounds like this scenerio puts a core soul.....which seems to be undefinable and indistinguishable, together with a mechanical object.....the body, which provides the personality through evolution and a roll of the dice. So, If this life is indeed a testing station, as I have always thought the 'Abrahamic' faiths teach, it would seem the only thing being tested is this mechanical personality.

[_madeleine]

A person is body and soul. Where does soul meet body? I wouldn't know, and have never heard anyone claim they do. God creates a person as a whole human, body and soul. All are equal In the eyes of God. More to the point. God's charity towards us is to our whole selves, body, soul, personality. And broader to the context in which we exist, societies, struggles, suffering, joys, etc. God meets us where we are.

St. Paul refers to life in the analogy of sport. Winning the race, which he clarifies quite well as faith in Jesus Christ, actions of charity towards others and forgiveness of others (including enemies).

There is not one person who has perfect faith, charity and forgiveness, except Jesus.

[_Dantana]

A person is body and soul. Where does soul meet body? I wouldn't know, and have never heard anyone claim they do. God creates a person as a whole human, body and soul. All are equal In the eyes of God. More to the point. God's charity towards us is to our whole selves, body, soul, personality. And broader to the context in which we exist, societies, struggles, suffering, joys, etc. God meets us where we are.

St. Paul refers to life in the analogy of sport. Winning the race, which he clarifies quite well as faith in Jesus Christ, actions of charity towards others and forgiveness of others (including enemies).

There is not one person who has perfect faith, charity and forgiveness, except Jesus.

But if the soul can exist separate from the body, in say, purgatory, that would seem to indicate that they are separate things/identities. Right? What does the soul do when it is in stasis, waiting to be resurrected? How does it interact with its enviroment without a body to nest in?

[_madeleine]

A person is body and soul. Where does soul meet body? I wouldn't know, and have never heard anyone claim they do. God creates a person as a whole human, body and soul. All are equal In the eyes of God. More to the point. God's charity towards us is to our whole selves, body, soul, personality. And broader to the context in which we exist, societies, struggles, suffering, joys, etc. God meets us where we are.

St. Paul refers to life in the analogy of sport. Winning the race, which he clarifies quite well as faith in Jesus Christ, actions of charity towards others and forgiveness of others (including enemies).

There is not one person who has perfect faith, charity and forgiveness, except Jesus.

But if the soul can exist separate from the body, in say, purgatory, that would seem to indicate that they are separate things/identities. Right? What does the soul do when it is in stasis, waiting to be resurrected? How does it interact with its enviroment without a body to nest in?

The soul and body are created together. The soul separated from a body is not a human being. If it were, then we wouldn't call it death, and there would be no need for Jesus Christ.

I don't know that anyone can say what a soul experiences after death.

Also, you have to understand the Christian concept of time. God, being the creator of time, exists outside of it. Most theologians I know of put the soul outside of time as well, after death. So what is time to a soul that is not experiencing time? Some speculate that purgatory would seem, to those of us in time, to be less than a moment.

[_cafe crema]

It sounds like this scenerio puts a core soul.....which seems to be undefinable and indistinguishable, together with a mechanical object.....the body, which provides the personality through evolution and a roll of the dice. So, If this life is indeed a testing station, as I have always thought the 'Abrahamic' faiths teach, it would seem the only thing being tested is this mechanical personality.

As I said I've never been taught that the purpose of this life was to be tested.

[_Dantana]

It sounds like this scenerio puts a core soul.....which seems to be undefinable and indistinguishable, together with a mechanical object.....the body, which provides the personality through evolution and a roll of the dice. So, If this life is indeed a testing station, as I have always thought the 'Abrahamic' faiths teach, it would seem the only thing being tested is this mechanical personality.

As I said I've never been taught that the purpose of this life was to be tested.

Judged, and assigned an eternal disposition depending on the persons behavior though right?

[_Dantana]

The soul and body are created together. The soul separated from a body is not a human being. If it were, then we wouldn't call it death, and there would be no need for Jesus Christ.

I don't know that anyone can say what a soul experiences after death.

Also, you have to understand the Christian concept of time. God, being the creator of time, exists outside of it. Most theologians I know of put the soul outside of time as well, after death. So what is time to a soul that is not experiencing time? Some speculate that purgatory would seem, to those of us in time, to be less than a moment.

Spirit + body = soul. Hydrogen + Oxygen = water. Board + nail = house. Electron + nucleus = atom. Each separate elements which create a structure. Each stand alone. What does the spirit consist of separate from the body? I think what you're saying is purgatory is a holding ground for sleeping spirits? It seems to me that to say the spirit is unaware, when it is not nested in the body, has no personality or definition, makes the spirit incoherent.....and a non factor.

[_madeleine]

The soul and body are created together. The soul separated from a body is not a human being. If it were, then we wouldn't call it death, and there would be no need for Jesus Christ.

I don't know that anyone can say what a soul experiences after death.

Also, you have to understand the Christian concept of time. God, being the creator of time, exists outside of it. Most theologians I know of put the soul outside of time as well, after death. So what is time to a soul that is not experiencing time? Some speculate that purgatory would seem, to those of us in time, to be less than a moment.

Spirit + body = soul. Hydrogen + Oxygen = water. Board + nail = house. Electron + nucleus = atom. Each separate elements which create a structure. Each stand alone. What does the spirit consist of separate from the body? I think what you're saying is purgatory is a holding ground for sleeping spirits? It seems to me that to say the spirit is unaware, when it is not nested in the body, has no personality or definition, makes the spirit incoherent.....and a non factor.

I don't know what a soul is aware of, or not aware of, or how a soul experiences anything. What is awareness to a soul? I can't say. As a Catholic I believe souls in heaven can hear our prayers. What is hearing to a soul? It is a word that describes how we understand things, here and now. Who can say how a soul hears our prayers? They certainly don't have ears to hear!

There have been mystics and poets who have tried to describe purgatory. My favorite is "The Dream of Gerontius"...but it isn't doctrine. It is the poem of Cardinal John Henry Newman. A work of art.

Certainly we believe the soul takes on effects from the body. Baptism leaves a permanent mark on the soul. Sin leaves an effect on a soul, which is why we believe purgatory is necessary. God's cleansing fire, that cleanses a soul of the temperal effects of sin.

Catholics believe a person is judged at the time of their death. A soul in purgatory is there before heaven. So purgatory is not so much a holding place, but a stopping place on the way to heaven. If you can even call it a place. Some very good theologians have called purgatory a state,not a place.

A soul is made in the image of God. God is Spirit, not matter. I know of nothing that can measure a soul.

As for your question about testing, Christian belief is that God created us out of love, in order to love Him. His love is not a test, and He isn't testing our love. We were created with free will in order to love God freely, as what sort of love is forced?

As for judgement, we hold no belief that there will be a theological test. Catholic teaching is, all will be judged according to their understand of God, and how they lived what they understood. Not as a form of a test, but as an indication as to the orientation of a person's heart. Towards love for God as they understand, or not. As who would want to live I heaven with God if they have no love for God? Hell, by definition, is a permanent separation from God. Those who will be judged that direction, will have made that choice.

It isn't a test that is based on doing, it is a judgment based on the sort of being a person is. The doing comes from who one is being.

[_Samantabhadra]

Spirit + body = soul. Hydrogen + Oxygen = water. Board + nail = house. Electron + nucleus = atom. Each separate elements which create a structure. Each stand alone. What does the spirit consist of separate from the body? I think what you're saying is purgatory is a holding ground for sleeping spirits? It seems to me that to say the spirit is unaware, when it is not nested in the body, has no personality or definition, makes the spirit incoherent.....and a non factor.

A couple of things...

1) In Catholic (as well as Orthodox) theology, it is taught that the Resurrection is a bodily Resurrection. That is why Christians are traditionally buried and not cremated: as a reminder that we will still have our bodies after death. This also ties in with the idea of the body being a temple. As regards this discussion, the point is that the body and the soul are not separable, as both were created by God.

2) Your functional analogy makes a certain kind of intuitive sense, but it fails at the molecular/atomic level. I won't go into hydrogen plus oxygen because it is really just a larger version of the electron-nucleus issue. Are you familiar with the concept of "binding energy"? The energy that binds valence electrons to the nuclues, or nuclear particles to each other, is a real thing, and skipping over the math (for now) for the sake of simplicity, the bottom line is that atoms always weigh less than the sum of their parts. In other words, it's never as simple as electrons + nucleus = atom. You are thinking as though it is possible to extrapolate 1:1 from mid-size dry objects like boards and nails to subatomic particles like protons and neutrons, but it just doesn't work that way. You can think of souls and bodies in a similar way; it is possible to conceptually distinguish them, but while they are still joined (as for example during our mortal life), their relationship is not analyzable into a simple dyad.