Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

[_EAllusion]

Booker T. Washington wrote that when a huge % of the black population were second-class citizens politically, often in soft, quasi-legal forms of servitude that weren't far off slavery, and generally the victims of immense racism. Do you think his quote was true in 1901 Ray?

Schryver's post was terribly racist. Stormfront-level material. That DCP happily endorsed it does not reflect well on him, though he probably interpreted it as more of an assertion of American exceptionalism based on his response and later comments. DCP needs to keep better friends. His loyalty, while I'm sure a virtue in many circumstances, repeatedly causes him to go down with the ship as in this case.

[_lulu]

This thread has probably run its course, for me any way, but in departing it I'll leave a quote:

I have long since ceased to cherish any spirit of bitterness against the Southern white people on account of the enslavement of my race. No one section of our country was wholly responsible for its introduction... Having once got its tentacles fastened on to the economic and social life of the Republic, it was no easy matter for the country to relieve itself of the institution. Then, when we rid ourselves of prejudice, or racial feeling, and look facts in the face, we must acknowledge that, notwithstanding the cruelty and moral wrong of slavery, the ten million Negroes inhabiting this country, who themselves or whose ancestors went through the school of American slavery, are in a stronger and more hopeful condition, materially, intellectually, morally, and religiously, than is true of an equal number of black people in any other portion of the globe....This I say, not to justify slavery – on the other hand, I condemn it as an institution, as we all know that in America it was established for selfish and financial reasons, and not from a missionary motive – but to call attention to a fact, and to show how Providence so often uses men and institutions to accomplish a purpose. When persons ask me in these days how, in the midst of what sometimes seem hopelessly discouraging conditions, I can have such faith in the future of my race in this country, I remind them of the wilderness through which and out of which, a good Providence has already led us.

Now let all hell break loose here on Booker T. Washington.

Washington didn't speak for all Blacks, just ask WEB Dubois.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

Booker T. Washington wrote that when a huge % of the black population were second-class citizens politically, often in soft, quasi-legal forms of servitude that weren't far off slavery, and generally the victims of immense racism. Do you think his quote was true in 1901 Ray?

Schryver's post was terribly racist. Stormfront-level material. That DCP happily endorsed it does not reflect well on him, though he probably interpreted it as more of an assertion of American exceptionalism based on his response and later comments. DCP needs to keep better friends. His loyalty, while I'm sure a virtue in many circumstances, repeatedly causes him to go down with the ship as in this case.

American exceptionalism? what a crock of lutefisk. While the American spirit is boundless, passionate, larger than life (or reality), and filled to the brim with optimism, it is also selfish, narrow minded, short sighted, naïve, short tempered, brutal, racist, violent, hypocritical, and astonishingly self deceptive.

What Americans do better than anyone (with the possible exception of China?) is turning land, resources, time, and people into money (Like this: a classical American will stomp into the worlds of people and nature and see things to improve. He will work hard, harder than anyone suffering great hardship and brutal conditions for the payoff. A true American will walk two thousand miles to a forest, shoot or enslave the people living there, suffer starvation, disease, violence of natives, deaths of loved ones and isolation. He patiently grubs stumps, builds houses, plows fields knowing that one day he would be rewarded with a home, a farm, a pile of money, and prestige. That is to say he will delay his joy while he invests suffering: he will endure hardship and sip lemonade when his toil is done.There is always a better day ahead.).

Let's compare that to the Scandinavian spirit: practical, focused, strong willed, tough-as-nails, hard working, rational, compassionate, highly egalitarian, and always highly efficient and resourceful. It is also anxious, introverted, resentful, envious, not very creative, fearful of expressing passion, despising individual accomplishment, grim, racist, and always fatalistic.

What Scandinavians do better than anyone is turn tragedy, suffering, meagerness, and hunger into passion, contentment, and enjoying life while it is good (Like this: a classical Scandinavian would work in his field is the rain, hungry from poor food, facing calamity from his marginal existence. He will feel the angst and worry more intensely than most. When the clouds break and a beam of rare warmth steals into the mortal world of cold and wind, it warms him deeply. He will feel the warmth and ease more intensely than most. A true Scandinavian is practical enough to see the sun wither his crops while allowing it to warm his skin. That is to say, it is his duty and nature to feel sorrow and joy, simultaneously, in life. Not because there is a better day ahead, but because today is that better day.)

What do we take from this? That people are people (as though there were such thing as a national spirit at all) and they have good qualities and bad qualities. There is nothing whatsoever better (or worse) about America nor Americanism. The term is just a reflection of our vanity, racism, and self deception.

[_Chap]

...

What do we take from this? That people are people (as though there were such thing as a national spirit at all) and they have good qualities and bad qualities. There is nothing whatsoever better (or worse) about America nor Americanism. The term is just a reflection of our vanity, racism, and self deception.

Yup. All different. Different goods, different bads, and we all just have to do the best we can with what we have. Together, we can do even better! Like the Quran says:

Surah al-Hujurat (49:13) :

People, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware.

Channelling DCP again ...

[_beastie]

"I thank God Almighty that he saw fit to snatch my forefathers from the darkness of their lives in Africa and plant them here in this land where, after not many generations, the majority of them are finally breaking free from the bondage of ignorance and dependence. Yes, slavery is inherently evil. Many suffered, not the least the slave traders and slave owners stained by its shame. But there was a divine purpose in these things, and I refuse to mock God by failing to see His hand in all things. And, most of all, I refuse to see my children returned to the slavery of dependence on those who condescendingly view themselves as our superiors."

As usual, I haven't had the time to read all the responses on this lengthy thread, so maybe shouldn't comment at all, but I will, because this is related to another idea that believers sometimes have that simply bugs me.

I agree that "good" can come from "evil", given time, persistence, and human creativity. No one has to simply sit down and give up. Or few have to, I guess some do. What I object to is the notion of attaching "divine purpose" to some of the most horrific suffering of mankind.

Some believers, including some LDS, rationalize the existence of otherwise senseless evil by invoking the idea that the suffering of others "teaches" us something - it gives "us" the opportunity to show compassion and charity, for example. So children are born painfully deformed, destined to live a short, painful life, because they "teach us" something, for example.

So, according to Schryver's acquaintance, if he is quoted correctly by Schryver, of which I am skeptical for various reasons, not the least of which is the amount of time passed since the incident, it's A-OK, and even divine providence that his forefathers were cruelly snatched from their homes and families, and then subjected to a brutal, short existence in which they were often treated like beasts of the field, because now he and his children get to live a middle-class American life.

Seriously? I mean, seriously?

Well, in behalf of believers who adhere to this philosophy, I extend a warm THANKS to the people whose lives of extraordinary suffering were divine providence so "we" could benefit and learn lessons. Did they sign up for this duty in the CK? Are they guaranteed exaltation in return, like the mentally handicapped?

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

"I thank God Almighty that he saw fit to snatch my forefathers from the darkness of their lives in Africa and plant them here in this land where, after not many generations, the majority of them are finally breaking free from the bondage of ignorance and dependence. Yes, slavery is inherently evil. Many suffered, not the least the slave traders and slave owners stained by its shame. But there was a divine purpose in these things, and I refuse to mock God by failing to see His hand in all things. And, most of all, I refuse to see my children returned to the slavery of dependence on those who condescendingly view themselves as our superiors."

As usual, I haven't had the time to read all the responses on this lengthy thread, so maybe shouldn't comment at all, but I will, because this is related to another idea that believers sometimes have that simply bugs me.

I agree that "good" can come from "evil", given time, persistence, and human creativity. No one has to simply sit down and give up. Or few have to, I guess some do. What I object to is the notion of attaching "divine purpose" to some of the most horrific suffering of mankind.

Some believers, including some LDS, rationalize the existence of otherwise senseless evil by invoking the idea that the suffering of others "teaches" us something - it gives "us" the opportunity to show compassion and charity, for example. So children are born painfully deformed, destined to live a short, painful life, because they "teach us" something, for example.

So, according to Schryver's acquaintance, if he is quoted correctly by Schryver, of which I am skeptical for various reasons, not the least of which is the amount of time passed since the incident, it's A-OK, and even divine providence that his forefathers were cruelly snatched from their homes and families, and then subjected to a brutal, short existence in which they were often treated like beasts of the field, because now he and his children get to live a middle-class American life.

Seriously? I mean, seriously?

Well, in behalf of believers who adhere to this philosophy, I extend a warm THANKS to the people whose lives of extraordinary suffering were divine providence so "we" could benefit and learn lessons. Did they sign up for this duty in the CK? Are they guaranteed exaltation in return, like the mentally handicapped?

Dang it, Beastie, I've spent three days working through this thread and then you swoop in and say much of what's on my mind! So, what Beastie said.

IHMO, This is a random world, not one that's being guided by some kind of providence. Random occurences have consequences, and sometimes the consequences lead to an improvement over the original situation, and that's fine and good. But that's all it is. Random. Only an insane god would orchestrate this mess and only neurotics think that they are being blessed every time something goes better than it might have.

[_beastie]

Dang it, Beastie, I've spent three days working through this thread and then you swoop in and say much of what's on my mind! So, what Beastie said.

IHMO, This is a random world, not one that's being guided by some kind of providence. Random occurences have consequences, and sometimes the consequences lead to an improvement over the original situation, and that's fine and good. But that's all it is. Random. Only an insane god would orchestrate this mess and only neurotics think that they are being blessed every time something goes better than it might have.

Amen!

(sorry about the swoop ;)

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Amen!

(sorry about the swoop ;)

It's okay, this time

I will add, though, this was a great thread, thought-provoking and well worth reading (except for Mr. Waste of Space a.k.a. ... Static a.k.a. Simon).

[_ludwigm]

American exceptionalism? what a crock of lutefisk. While the American spirit is boundless, passionate, larger than life (or reality), and filled to the brim with optimism, it is also selfish, narrow minded, short sighted, naïve, short tempered, brutal, racist, violent, hypocritical, and astonishingly self deceptive.

What Americans do better than anyone (with the possible exception of China?) is turning land, resources, time, and people into money (Like this: a classical American will stomp into the worlds of people and nature and see things to improve. He will work hard, harder than anyone suffering great hardship and brutal conditions for the payoff. A true American will walk two thousand miles to a forest, shoot or enslave the people living there, suffer starvation, disease, violence of natives, deaths of loved ones and isolation. He patiently grubs stumps, builds houses, plows fields knowing that one day he would be rewarded with a home, a farm, a pile of money, and prestige. That is to say he will delay his joy while he invests suffering: he will endure hardship and sip lemonade when his toil is done.There is always a better day ahead.).

Let's compare that to the Scandinavian spirit: practical, focused, strong willed, tough-as-nails, hard working, rational, compassionate, highly egalitarian, and always highly efficient and resourceful. It is also anxious, introverted, resentful, envious, not very creative, fearful of expressing passion, despising individual accomplishment, grim, racist, and always fatalistic.

What Scandinavians do better than anyone is turn tragedy, suffering, meagerness, and hunger into passion, contentment, and enjoying life while it is good (Like this: a classical Scandinavian would work in his field is the rain, hungry from poor food, facing calamity from his marginal existence. He will feel the angst and worry more intensely than most. When the clouds break and a beam of rare warmth steals into the mortal world of cold and wind, it warms him deeply. He will feel the warmth and ease more intensely than most. A true Scandinavian is practical enough to see the sun wither his crops while allowing it to warm his skin. That is to say, it is his duty and nature to feel sorrow and joy, simultaneously, in life. Not because there is a better day ahead, but because today is that better day.)

What do we take from this? That people are people (as though there were such thing as a national spirit at all) and they have good qualities and bad qualities. There is nothing whatsoever better (or worse) about America nor Americanism. The term is just a reflection of our vanity, racism, and self deception.

OK. I agree all of Your words.

Please change Your avatar. You are not of Obama.



by the way people are people...